Is the Empire really evil?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Quixotic-Sith, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    [PT watcher]Really? When did they do that?[/PT watcher] :-B
  2. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "the sith were not entirly wiped out by the jedi. the sith wiped themselves out because they are too busy betraying each other and trying to gain total power. this is based on eu. betraying ones master and trying to kill anybody else that stands in your way ot total control of the galexey is once again not usually something a good person does. the jedi certinly did kill a lot of sith as well. but that was for the good of the people."

    That's not entirely accurate. While occasionally the Sith would kill each other, the ultimate downfall of the Sith happened at the Battle of Ruusan. In order to take out as many Jedi as they could (who were slaughtering them left and right) they [the remaining Sith presence in the galaxy] sacrificed themselves. As far as the Jedi were concerned, all were killed. However, Darth Bane survived. Rewrote the Sith Order, yaddah yaddah yaddah, you know the story.

    "One is allowed to practice their philosophy as long as it does not involve the harming of others. The sith cheat, lie, and start wars to get what they want. Are you saying that the US should not fight terrorists that will kill innocents to prove their point? Is that philosophy protected?"

    Everyone makes it sound like the Sith just go around slaughtering people just because. Where did you guys get that impression? Name once instance where a Sith killed someone just because. You think the Jedi philosophy doesn't harm people? They take children away from their parents, usually by 6 months of age, and the parents are never allowed to see them again. They separate them from their families, their emotions, the very things that make life worth living. The Sith at least gave people the choice to join their order. They didn't force anyone.

    Strilo edit: Removed post on current politics

    "Things that point to the Empire being evil:

    In OT:
    -says so in the beginning scroll ANH"

    Circumstantial

    "-Vader kills a member of Tantive crew who was unarmed"

    A traitor. The US executes traitors, armed or not.

    "-even though Luke was on the outer rim he has heard about them - and even though Tatooine isn't part of the Empire he feels a duty to oppose it (geez, the Empire must be pretty bad)"

    Um, what? Tatooine is a part of the Empire and who is opposing it?

    "-slaughter jawas"

    Overzealous Storm Troopers. Police brutality is not uncommon. Does that make the government evil?

    "-kill Luke's aunt and uncle"

    You don't know that they didn't start shooting first. In fact, it's likely they did.

    "-torture Princess Leia"

    Even the US has been known to use torture in extreme circumstances and I think stolen plans of the Death Star count as extreme.

    "-blows up unarmed planet to set an example (millions of innocents die)"

    Never confimed that it was unarmed. And were Hiroshima and Nagasaki given the chance to evacuate or defend themselves?

    "-needs DS to keep the systems in order so obviously they must be doing something bad if people aren't that happy with them"

    Much like the atom bomb. Which WE created.

    "-Vader force chokes officers at will (Emperor apparently doesn't mind and in fact is LESS forgiving)"

    Different rules in that universe. It's perfectly acceptable to kill someone who has failed you. Many Earth cultures were the same.

    "-Vader will kill his own son if he doesn't join him to overthrow the Emperor in order to rule as father and son"

    During the Revolutionary war, Bed Franklin fought against his own son. Hard decisions have to be made in wartime.

    "-Vader tells Luke, "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." Not "You don't know how well the Empire can maintain peace in the galaxy." He is after power no matter what."

    You can't maintain order and peace without power. That would be like France trying to make the world play nice.

    "-Emperor tells Luke that he will be "mine" like his father is. Not something a "good" person would say"

    An ailing corporation gains a brilliant businessman who
  3. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    Things that point to the Empire being evil:

    In OT:
    -says so in the beginning scroll ANH
    -Vader kills a member of Tantive crew who was unarmed
    -even though Luke was on the outer rim he has heard about them - and even though Tatooine isn't part of the Empire he feels a duty to oppose it (geez, the Empire must be pretty bad)
    -slaughter jawas
    -kill Luke's aunt and uncle
    -torture Princess Leia
    -blows up unarmed planet to set an example (millions of innocents die)
    -needs DS to keep the systems in order so obviously they must be doing something bad if people aren't that happy with them
    -Vader force chokes officers at will (Emperor apparently doesn't mind and in fact is LESS forgiving)
    -Vader will kill his own son if he doesn't join him to overthrow the Emperor in order to rule as father and son
    -Vader tells Luke, "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." Not "You don't know how well the Empire can maintain peace in the galaxy." He is after power no matter what.
    -Emperor tells Luke that he will be "mine" like his father is. Not something a "good" person would say
    -Emperor tortures Luke with lightning before killing him (well intending to kill aways)
    -Vader/Anakin, "Tell your sister you were right[that there was GOOD left in him] He says this because up until he threw the Emperor over the railing and saved Luke he had done nothing good since he turned, hence he had been evil to that point.

    And can't discuss ROTS yet.

    Now I would ask those who don't think that the Empire was evil, to compile a list of evidence that the Empire was in fact good as demonstrated by the movies. I'm keen to see what you come up with.
  4. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    For starters (as I don't have the time to make an entire list), most of your list are accounted for by two people - not the Empire as a whole.
  5. DS615 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2003
    star 4
    For starters (as I don't have the time to make an entire list), most of your list are accounted for by two people - not the Empire as a whole.

    Agreed. All you've done is show that Vader and Palpatine are evil. You've said nothing about the Empire as a whole.

  6. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    But they run the Empire. In the movie they represent what the Empire is. But regardless, mention a few things that the Empire does in the movie to show that it was good. Also, I did not say that the items on the above list made the Empire evil, I said that it points to it being evil. I think that a reasonable person taking the items as a whole would draw that conclusion.

    "For starters (as I don't have the time to make an entire list), most of your list are accounted for by two people - not the Empire as a whole."

    Actually over 40% of the items on my list didn't mention Vader or the Emperor.

    "Agreed. All you've done is show that Vader and Palpatine are evil. You've said nothing about the Empire as a whole."

    Who are the 2 people in the movies who are key individuals in the Empire that we get so see a fair chunk of the time? The Emperor and Vader. There isn't sufficient time to go into the Empire in any more depth.

    "That can be analyzed any number of ways. When did Leia ever really say two words about Vader? We have no idea what he meant by "Tell your sister she was right." "

    Arisin, Vader never says "Tell your sister SHE was right." What he says is "Tell your sister YOU were right." And it is clear that he meant that there was good left in him.

    "Never confimed that it was unarmed. And were Hiroshima and Nagasaki given the chance to evacuate or defend themselves?"

    Japan was at war with the Allies. Alderaan was not at war with the Empire.

    "Different rules in that universe. It's perfectly acceptable to kill someone who has failed you. Many Earth cultures were the same."

    Well apparently before we continue with this discussion, Arisin is going to provide us all with a definition of what evil is in the Star Wars universe. Is serial killing also acceptable behaviour?

    "During the Revolutionary war, Bed Franklin fought against his own son. Hard decisions have to be made in wartime."

    I think Vader trying to recruit his son to overthrow the Emperor would be an act of treason. Or does the Star Wars definition of treason not include this?
  7. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    "But they run the Empire. In the movie they represent what the Empire is. But regardless, mention a few things that the Empire does in the movie to show that it was good. Also, I did not say that the items on the above list made the Empire evil, I said that it points to it being evil. I think that a reasonable person taking the items as a whole would draw that conclusion."

    So you're saying that if the leadership of a government is evil, then that makes the entire government along with the people it governs evil by default? Do you not see your flaw? (Not saying the Empire is evil, btw. Just going with your example)

    "Actually over 40% of the items on my list didn't mention Vader or the Emperor."

    And ALL could be easily explained. Not one thing in your list proved a damn thing.

    "Who are the 2 people in the movies who are key individuals in the Empire that we get so see a fair chunk of the time? The Emperor and Vader. There isn't sufficient time to go into the Empire in any more depth."

    Exactly, so you can't make a fair ruling against the Empire. From what we see on film, there's nothing to show that the Empire is evil at all.

    "Arisin, Vader never says "Tell your sister SHE was right." What he says is "Tell your sister YOU were right." And it is clear that he meant that there was good left in him."

    Fine, I got the quote wrong, but my point still stands. He doesn't say specifically what he was right about. That example has no merit at all unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt EXACTLY what he meant by it.

    "Japan was at war with the Allies. Alderaan was not at war with the Empire."

    Alderaan was one of the most rebellious worlds in the Empire. Not only was it the home of the rebellion, but it housed many of the rebel leaders. That could be seen as an act of war. Easily.

    "Well apparently before we continue with this discussion, Arisin is going to provide us all with a definition of what evil is in the Star Wars universe. Is serial killing also acceptable behaviour?"

    I love it when you're condescending. Alright, no, serial killing is not ok. Serial killers in the Empire are prosecuted and punished. But the definition of serial killer is someone who kills repeatedly and premeditatively. Killing in the name of the government isn't murder. We never saw a single murder by Star Wars standards (Except when Jabba threw the dancing girl Oola to the Rancor and when Vader killed Palpatine). And please, don't come back with some unresearched rebuttal about serial killers. I did a ten page research paper on them last year. I'm pretty well informed concerning them.


    "I think Vader trying to recruit his son to overthrow the Emperor would be an act of treason. Or does the Star Wars definition of treason not include this?"

    No, for once you're right. Vader was treasonous. That's one reason why I have less respect for him. But, the Emperor knew of his treasonous thoughts. He planned on Luke killing Vader on the second Death Star and taking his place.


    "Now I would ask those who don't think that the Empire was evil, to compile a list of evidence that the Empire was in fact good as demonstrated by the movies. I'm keen to see what you come up with."

    The movies only give one point of view. I could easily make a movie showing how "evil" the US is by only showing some of the more darker things in our history, but that wouldn't be fair because it wouldn't show all the good we've done. The movies are biased. That's why those of us on the Empire's side need to use common sense instead of cirumstantial evidence to prove our case.
  8. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
    "Fine, I got the quote wrong, but my point still stands. He doesn't say specifically what he was right about. That example has no merit at all unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt EXACTLY what he meant by it."

    Arisin, even as a small child I knew what he meant.

    "And ALL could be easily explained."

    Not if you watched the movies.

    "Exactly, so you can't make a fair ruling against the Empire. From what we see on film, there's nothing to show that the Empire is evil at all."

    Wrong. I'll say again, the Emperor controls the Empire. Do you really think that someone consumed by evil will use the organization at his disposal to carry out humanitarian acts?

    "That example has no merit at all unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt EXACTLY what he meant by it."

    Arisin, even to prove murder in a court of law you don't have to prove 'beyond a shadow of a doubt EXACTLY what happened.'

    "Alderaan was one of the most rebellious worlds in the Empire. Not only was it the home of the rebellion, but it housed many of the rebel leaders. That could be seen as an act of war. Easily."

    I was only aware of Leia and her crew being part of the alliance. How did you reach the conclusion that Alderaan and its millions of people were rebellious? Did the Empire declare war or just open fire without warning? Here's a bit from ANH - "TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station. In a way,
    you have determined the choice of the planet that'll be destroyed
    first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the
    Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power...
    on your home planet of Alderaan.

    LEIA: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't
    possibly...

    TARKIN: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name
    the system!

    Tarkin waves menacingly toward Leia.

    TARKIN: I grow tired of asking this. So it'll be the last time. Where
    is the Rebel base?
    Leia overhears an intercom voice announcing the approach to
    Alderaan.

    LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.

    Leia lowers her head.

    LEIA: They're on Dantooine.

    TARKIN: There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. (addressing
    Motti) Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready.

    LEIA: What?

    TARKIN: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an
    effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel
    friends soon enough. "

    So you see that Tarkin does not consider Alderaan to be a military target, and in his last two sentences show that he does not consider Alderaan to be part of the Rebel Alliance.


    "I did a ten page research paper on them last year. I'm pretty well informed concerning them."

    Double spaced no doubt. Did you fiddle with the margins?

    "The movies only give one point of view"

    So what your saying is that the footage of the Emperor and Vader doling out food at the soup kitchen was left on the cutting room floor?

    "That's why those of us on the Empire's side need to use common sense instead of cirumstantial evidence to prove our case."

    All I'm asking is that you use common sense. I'm still waiting though.

    "So you're saying that if the leadership of a government is evil, then that makes the entire government along with the people it governs evil by default? Do you not see your flaw? (Not saying the Empire is evil, btw. Just going with your example)"

    You need to go back and read my previous posts. The answer to you question is there already.

  9. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    This argument was stated to be based on what we see in the movies, not based on what we DON'T see. In the movies, we see the empire being evil. That answers the question. If you want to assume things, go ahead, but assumptions prove nothing. (Directed at Asirin)
  10. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
  11. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    <<<<<Never confimed that it was unarmed.>>>>>

    Leia says it in ANH:

    LEIA
    No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly-

    It's also addressed in... well, never mind.
  12. TheEmperorsProtege Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2004
    star 5
    I'd say the empire is evil cause of the people running it. its not just vader also the admirals and other people in charge.
    but like everything its not ALL BAD. there are also people serving it that probably arent bad. just cause the "government" is doesnt mean everyone working for it is ;)

    -Mel
  13. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Is Captain/Admiral Piett evil?
  14. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
  15. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    "-Vader kills a member of Tantive crew who was unarmed"

    A traitor. The US executes traitors, armed or not.


    OK first off, the U.S. does NOT always execute traitors. It's very very rare. And I got news for you. It's not done ON THE SPOT. It's called Due Process and we use it. The Empire did not. Hence they are evil.


    "-slaughter jawas"

    Overzealous Storm Troopers. Police brutality is not uncommon. Does that make the government evil?


    There is a huge difference between police brutality and the slaughter of SCORES of people by the Military.


    "-kill Luke's aunt and uncle"

    You don't know that they didn't start shooting first. In fact, it's likely they did.


    This is pure speculation on your part and has absolutely no basis in the films. We don't even see evidence that Owen and Beru HAVE GUNS. You don't know that they DID start shooting first. Got more news for you. In Due Process, the burden is on the Empire to PROVE that Owen and Beru shot first. Can't do it can you?


    "-needs DS to keep the systems in order so obviously they must be doing something bad if people aren't that happy with them"

    Much like the atom bomb. Which WE created.


    And the Russians created... and guess what? Recent evidence and new publications reveal that the Nazis tested an atomic device in 1945. How would you like to have been in America if we had NOT developed the atom bomb? Wow that Cold War would have been short and we'd all be speaking Russian and / or German now. The difference is, the Empire is not developing the Death Star in response to another government developing a similar weapon. Hell, they aren't even developing it in response to the Rebels. They were planning it in AOTC long before the Rebellion started.


    "-Vader force chokes officers at will (Emperor apparently doesn't mind and in fact is LESS forgiving)"

    Different rules in that universe. It's perfectly acceptable to kill someone who has failed you. Many Earth cultures were the same.


    Yes but we are more enlightened now and we know that simply killing someone without any sort of due process is unethical and barbaric. In other words, evil.


    "-Emperor tortures Luke with lightning before killing him (well intending to kill aways)"

    Refusing to join the Empire was an act of treason. Traitors are executed. Simple as that.


    Again, Due Process.

  16. The_Flargg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2004
    star 2
    Yeah, even NAZIS were given trials by the world after WWII, and not all of the leaders were killed (although Hitler and Goebbells were already dead). The Jedi were planning on doing the same with Palpatine: trying (sp) and then most likely executing him. Fair. At least, as long as your not a murdering evil Sith.
  17. TheEmperorsProtege Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2004
    star 5
    well the "good guys" always believe in a just trial whereas the bad guys just kill the ones they wanna get rid of

    -Mel
  18. Darth_IRS Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 2
  19. Darth_Arisin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    star 1
    Strilo edit: You are now done with this thread.
  20. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    This thread will NOT deteriorate into personal jabs and flame-baiting. Keep it civil or face consequences.

  21. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    I agree with Arisin's post...well, before it got edited. Despite using real world examples to justify the empire, we also need to remember that it was a different universe, and not ours. So our rules about what should be done do not apply there.
  22. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Let's remember that Lucas created this as modern mythology for HUMANS. The lessons and morals he is teaching through the films apply directly to OUR CULTURE. The lack of something like due process for Captain Antilles or Owen and Beru is wrong in our culture and wrong in the SW universe too.

  23. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    But that makes no sense. It may be made for us humans, but that doesn't mean that they live by the same morals and have the same steps in a judicial process that we do. That would be like saying that cultures in Africa that evolved separate from the rest of the civilization would immediately be deemed wrong because they do not reflect our morals 100%. Just because it was made for our enjoyment does not mean that it is supposed to represent humans here and now. It is a work a fiction, in a separate universe. So different morals, ideals, processes, etc.
  24. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I don't get this. Is the Empire really evil? The government is riddled with people who do evil things. The characters within the film react to them AS evil as does the audience. Thus the government IS largely evil. You know, there were lots of Nazis who were not evil. They were good people stuck in bad situations. Yet we have no problem condemning every last Nazi as evil. Hell some people even throw the German people in there, punishing them for sins they did not commit or even know about.

    So if a significant number of Imperial officers and government leaders are corrupt and do evil things, it is safe to say the Empire is evil. Are the average people evil? No I don't think anyone would pretend they are. But the Empire is largely evil.

  25. plokoon_da_sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    But condemning them all as evil is just like saying all nazis or germans are evil. Plus, what one person sees as evil might not be evil to someone else. I'm not saying that it is bright and fuzzy times the empire brought about, but just because it appears evil does not mean it is. There are always two sides to something, and there are two ways to see a situation. In the movies we were presented with one side, and it would be wrong to not consider the fact that there is another side/view. Going back to a "due process" argument, it seems that if people insist on saying that our morals and processes have to be applied, then the empire itself would be deserving of due process before it it condemned as an evil institution, much like people alleged with murder.
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