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Is the Empire really that bad?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by numaer, Aug 19, 2005.

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  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I posted this in the CT thread as well.




    The Empire has often been criticized for ruling by fear. Many have suggested that coercion and threats of force should not be valid tools of a governmental institution (mind you: the penal system of any government works via threat of force).

    However, it should be duly noted that Luke Skywalker clearly used a threat of force to compell the Ewoks to do as he wished. Otherwise, Threepio, their overlord, would get angry and use his magic. This is a classic execution of what the EU has dubbed the 'Tarkin Doctrine'--the fear of force will coerce others into doing what those in power wish.

    Why, then, should this notion be used against the Galactic Empire if the so-called heroes can do the same?
     
  2. ObiWan506

    ObiWan506 Former Head Admin star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Great point! I think the biggest argument one can make is the magnitude of fear you are talking about.

    For instance, the Empire instills fear into the Galaxy by using a huge ball to blow up planets. Luke scares the Ewoks by threatening to use some magic. See?

    The difference is the Empire actually do evil things and their fear is on a much greater magnitude. Luke never actually did the things he said he would do to the Ewoks, plus the magnitude isn't even comparable to say, blowing up a planet.

    :)
     
  3. Darth_Joshy

    Darth_Joshy Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Can you say "Propaganda"?
     
  4. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    I once read a Star Wars book(I don't remember which one) in which some imperial officer says that the Emperor wasn't exactly a tyrant.

    The SW books aren't part of the movie canon. (See my signature.) Also, you can hardly expect an Imperial officer to be objective when it comes to the Emperor.

    Who was a Sith lord. Who ordered the slaughter of who knows how many people/beings. Who commissioned weapons designed to destroy a planet. Who used Force lightning to fry his enemies.

    He was indeed a tyrant. The Empire was evil (opening scrawl to ANH).

    at the beginning of ANH, it does say the "evil" glactic empire, but its biased in favour of the rebellion,

    No it isn't. It's the omniscient narrator.

    which are the good guys. once i was reading a star wars book and i remember someone, affiliated with the New Republic,

    SW books are not part of the movie canon. This "New Republic" exists in a parallel universe that exists outside Lucas's universe (his words -- TV Guide, Oct. 2001).

    saying the empire kept peace and order in the galaxy.

    The galaxy was at war by the time of ANH. Obviously lots of people didn't like the Empire and its oppressive rule.

    They basically said "like your neighbor, or we will kill you." It kept peace and order in the galaxy, though through means of fear.

    How nice of them.

    That's just one more thing I can't stand about the EU...the way it tries to make the Empire "not so bad," mostly in order to absolve "kewl" or "popular" characters who, in the context of the EU story, served the Emperor. No, no, they weren't bad, because the Empire and the Emperor weren't bad either.

    In order to do this, the EU authors either try to make the Empire look good by contrast (i.e., making the New Republic incompetent and corrupt), or insert unlikely examples of supposed Imperial beneficence. Or else they try to make the heroes question their actions while they served the Rebellion. The most disgusting example of this was in the Black Fleet Crisis books, when some woman Luke was sleeping with told him he was wrong for destroying the first Death Star -- and HE BELIEVED HER.

    Good LORD. The destruction of the Death Star, the moment which galvanized a generation and, even 20 years later, still had audiences applauding and cheering in movie theaters...is twisted into something "bad" in an EU novel. For what purpose? Is this supposed to be "depth"?
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Shelley: Of course, having cookie-cutter one-dimensional villains with no sense of dignity or morality makes a much better story. [face_plain]

    No, every Imperial is a bad guy who kicks puppies, steps on flowers, and steals candy from babies. YAY! That must be good storytelling.

    Oh, and the Rebels? They're perfect and never committed a single sin. Forget that the MOVIE shows Han as a drug smuggler evading the law, the Empire was clearly oppressing his right to transport narcotics. Han Solo is a shiny innocent human being, like all the perfect Rebels. :) :) :) :) :)

    ObiWan506: Not entirely. Tarkin's entire conception was that the fear of force would be more important than actually exercising that force. The fact that planets were destroyed was incidental--the threat was what was important.

    And clearly, Luke Skywalker has no qualms about doing either.
     
  6. ObiWan506

    ObiWan506 Former Head Admin star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2003
    I understand your argument. But I have to go by what I've seen in the movies. Tarkin never appears to be passive with his new Death Star toy. He blows up Alderaan to make a point, Alderaan posed no threat to him or the Empire. Luke threatened Ewoks with magic. Luke, though he appears to be convincing, could only just be all talk. Perhaps Luke has a really good poker face ... but I don't think he ever intended on hurting or scaring the Ewoks very much.

    The level of fear expressed by each the Empire and Luke is on two completely different planes.
     
  7. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Good point. That explains why the EU is consistently so lousy and its villains so boring, and the movie villains so much more interesting -- unlike the EU villains, they aren't one-dimensional, and they do have a sense of dignity and morality, even if it's only so they can better manipulate people.

    Good thing Lucas didn't go that route, then, and instead made his villains more interesting than the Star Trek ripoffs that permeate the EU. Heck, even Darth Maul, who had maybe two lines and had only a minor role in one movie, was ten times more interesting than Grand Admiral Yawn...er, Thrawn, or the Bong...er, Vong.

    Where did I say that?

    Han wasn't a Rebel then; he didn't formally join the Rebellion until ROTJ, long after giving up smuggling. Also, it's odd how you mention Han's smuggling past. In the EU, Mara Jade -- the Ultimate Hero of the New Republic, the red-gold goddess who's held up as an ideal that every other character should aspire to be like -- also had a past as a smuggler, as well as a throat-slitter for the Emperor himself, but it's never even brought up, much less held against her. Han, on the other hand, is stil thought of with disdain as a "former smuggler," despite doing more for the galaxy than Mara ever could.

    No, he's an interestingly flawed human being, whose sense of decency is reactivated when he meets up with Luke and Leia. But I suppose in the EU he's considered a monster compared to the sweet, innocent former Imperials -- i.e., Mara, the Imperial assassin who was taught by a Sith but was NEVER DARK, and was purer than the snow on Hoth even while she murdered people -- that the EU keeps trying to hoist up above Luke, Han and Leia, and the rest of the dirty stinking Rebels who dared to fight to overthrow the moral, beneficent, perfect Empire that never hurt anyone.

    You are honestly comparing Luke making an empty threat -- in order to free himself and his friends, who were about to be roasted alive -- to Tarkin threatening to blow up a planet with a weapon designed for that very purpose in order to extract the location of the hidden Rebel base (so he could then use the weapon to destroy that base), when he not only had the capability, he then proceeded to do it.

    You are honestly comparing the two.

    There are...just no words.
     
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    ObiWan506: Firstly, I'm going to have to delve into EU for a tidbit known as the Tarkin Doctrine. Essentially, he developed the policy for the Empire that said rule by fear of force rather than force itself. That is, essentially, what Luke did.

    The destruction of Alderaan was an aberration. Tarkin was being a brute about it, and even Lord Vader noted it was entirely unnecessary and something he shouldn't be doing. Tarkin, naturally, refused to listen to him.

    As for Alderaan not being a threat: really? Their princess was running supplies for them back and forth and their leader was the founder of the Rebellion, who used his powers to divert vast funds from the Senate into the Rebellion (from the official site). The uniforms worn on Hoth were all Alderaanian in nature and were very similar to the uniforms and weapons used by the Alderaanian troops in the beginning of ANH.

    Alderaan was very much a military target. While destroying an entire planet just for that is gross overkill, it is simply incorrect to say that Alderaan was not a threat.




    [i][blockquote]Good point. That explains why the EU is consistently so lousy and its villains so boring, and the movie villains so much more interesting -- unlike the EU villains, they aren't one-dimensional, and they do have a sense of dignity and morality, even if it's only so they can better manipulate people.
    [/i][/blockquote]

    And yet you want to demand that the Empire is entirely evil and every single person involved with it is thoroughly bad and that nothing good came out of it?

    [i][blockquote]Good thing Lucas didn't go that route, then, and instead made his villains more interesting than the Star Trek ripoffs that permeate the EU. Heck, even Darth Maul, who had maybe two lines and had only a minor role in one movie, was ten times more interesting than Grand Admiral Yawn...er, Thrawn, or the Bong...er, Vong. [/i][/blockquote]

    If you say so. Personally, I think Maul is an insult to any intelligent viewer. That's supposed to be impressive? Flashy tricks don't make fighting--it's worse than the Matrix or any other lame action movie.

    Darth Maul is the ultimate insult to anyone who knows a bloody thing about fighting, and is just an appeal to children's short attention spans.

    Say what you will about EU villains, you're welcome to your opinion, but please please use a better example than Darth Maul.

    [i][blockquote]Where did I say that? [/i][/blockquote]

    You suggested it when you said that Rebel actions and imperialism are justified because they're overthrowing the Empire.

    [i][blockquote]Han wasn't a Rebel then; he didn't formally join the Rebellion until ROTJ, long after giving up smuggling. Also, it's odd how you mention Han's smuggling past. In the EU, Mara Jade -- the Ultimate Hero of the New Republic, the red-gold goddess who's held up as an ideal that every other character should aspire to be like -- also had a past as a smuggler, as well as a throat-slitter for the Emperor himself, but it's never even brought up, much less held against her. Han, on the other hand, is stil thought of with disdain as a "former smuggler," despite doing more for the galaxy than Mara ever could. [/i][/blockquote]

    Y'know, Zahn at least had a multitude of characters become suspicious of Jade in his early books and refuse to associate with her simply because of her past. Somehow between then and now she became this perfect poster girl, but don't look at me, I agree with you about her.

    Also, those who bring up Han's past tend to be lame functionaries who could never even dream of being as important as Han Solo and couldn't possibly hope to do what he did. So they have to demean him in whatever way they can: name-calling. I rather think it's a nice touch, because it shows that they've nothing better to go by.

    The more capable characters don't underestimate him. For instance, I was just reading [i]Solo Command[/i] again last night, and Warlord Zsinj notes: 'I just can't beat Han Solo. I just don't have it. I don't have the kno
     
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