Is the Empire the real good guys?

I think much of it is simply a disagreement on both of those premisies.

Now, I'd say that one is because there is from what I've seen two fairly entrenched camps within the Star Wars fandom. There's the I suppose Classicalists(for lack of a better word, Classic in this referring to the old days where the series was made of "Star Wars", "The Empire Strikes Back", and "Return of the Jedi) whom view the films still as being morally absolute. On the other hand there's the fans that largely were influenced by the Prequels(again just from my perception) and things like Lucas's quote that the Jedi were corrupted, and the Episode 3 opening scroll which states there are heroes on both sides. I'm definitely more in the first camp in terms of the Saga, but I'm a little less so in some ways with the Prequels.

I think much of that is due to the difference in tone from the Prequels and Originals.

 

My first piece of advice - don't take any of this personally. No one is callg you down as a person.

 

sure thing =D i am pretty dim, so most insults go right over my noggin anyways

but instead of advice, id rather have someone just answer my question from above.

i have never had to wait this long to have someone tell me how foolish i am. =D

 

I attempted to answer it on the previous page.

 

Hero of Canton: can you please explain to me how you view the Empire as good guys?

The PT are much more grey than the OT, which is fairly black and white. However, this scale of grey in the PT is only there personified by Anakin and his inner-struggles. It has nothing to do with Sideous actually being a good guy, or Yoda the devil-incarnate. The Jedi are represented as selfish peace keepers. They were deceived by a, more or less, devil, and their own arrogance, blindness and goodness.

It is morally detestable to argue that ANY kind of dictatorship is good - even if you think socialism is bad. I would rather make my own mistakes than have some demi-God do them for me.

Plato, in his Republic, argues that a democracy is not the proper solution - so I suppose you can apply him for you argument, but neither does he come to terms with a dictatorship as the ultimate solution...

 

Plato wanted to combat an attitude - one that said it's ok to committ an injustice or
illegal act if the result was advantageous to the person committing it (silly Sophists).
The Empire had no prob committing an illegal or injust act if they thought it was of benefit to
the Empire. How does this make them to good guys? A logical answer escapes me and I am glad it does.

 

Someone thinks the Empire is good?
Who is this silly person?

My advice: learn to read. I believe the open scroll mentions the evil Galactic Empire. As much as I loathe the following phrase, it does carry a small amount of joy when applied appropriately, so here goes. (ahem)

Nuff said.

There! That felt grand. Perhaps I should have used an aposthrophie in front of the 'nuff'? No Matter.

 

Yes, but the "philospher must become king, or the king must become a philosopher" gives strength to the Empire lovers. But yes, my queen, I surely agree with you - how you can justify it escapes me as well

 

Stop hitting on Jedi-Queen!!!

 

A reminder not to make personal comments, all.

 

Was that because Jamiebacca said I was hitting on Jedi Queen? I WASN'T

 

lol
Oh a lil harmless bantering or humour is good now and then, isn't it?
Personal attacks are bad, but what's wrong with a lil fun once in awhile.

 

You might want to take that question to the Emperor

Although, the youtube parody of him and (sissy) Vader is quite hilarious

 

Robot Chicken Parody.
Don't be like the EVIL empire by not giving credit where it is due.

 

I don't think Leia had a choice. Like you said, the Empire was going to blow up her homeplanet no matter what she told them. I think the Palpatine knew Bail Organa was a leader rebellion by that point in the saga. It wasn't just a demostration but a message to all the Rebel leaders or anyone that supports the Rebels. I think so anyways.

 

Yep!
Destroying the planet was just a good excuse for showing off his enlargement (of some sort). They wanted Bail dead, and a few millions with him wouldn't hurt.

I really don't see the argument here - although it is interesting, but for all the wrong reasons

 

As much as like to debate, this cannot truly be an item up for debate. The Empire is clearly EVIL. They destroyed a planet and were planning on destroying a lot more. We live in a dark age indeed if moral relativity is such that acts of genocide can be justified as "keeping order".

 

"We live in a dark age indeed if moral relativity is such that acts of genocide can be justified as "keeping order"."

Agreed! I feel like saying 'what is this world coming to??'

 

Sorry to knock on the door of an old thread but i am new and wanted to comment if that is ok.

Obi is my bestest most favoritest person in the saga (i am sure lots are with me), so i wonder how this works out "only a sith deals in absolutes". If that is the case, how is moral relativity a bad thing? Also i dont have the exact quote(maybe someone does)"you will come to find out that things will change depending on your point of view". Sorry for butchering that one its been a while. Again we have Obi passing on some wisdom that doesnt seem to put objectivity in such a bad light.

I surely am not saying the Empire are heroes here, but you are either open minded or not, objective or not. Being truely objective cant suddenly stop when someone blows up a planet can it?

 

The Empire might've been good if it had been ruled by a decent man as their Emperor.

The problem is that Palps, and Sithlords in general, are never content with the power they have, They want more, always. Palps nature and the nature of the Darkside compels him to go from Senator to Chancellor, from Chancellor to Emperor, then from Emperor to autocrat, then from autocrat to second under God, then from Second under God till he becomes an actual God. People will tolerate Emperors. People may even tolerate autocrats, as long as its somebody else's problem. But once he starts reaching for the next rung up, people start to have issues over it. Fortunately the rebellion stopped him before he got that far.

That's why the Empire wasn't a benign monarchy dedicated to peace and stability like many have claimed. It was a government from its conception meant to help Darth Sidious keep the power he stole from the Republic and any further power he attained period. Peace and Stability were words he used to make morons start applauding him in the senate chambers. Joe schmoe Imperial might've believed in the words, but that doesn't really change the truth, does it?

Certainly the republic was having problems but it could have been solved without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Certainly the Jedi became too insular from the populace in general, but again not a case to throw that all away. The republic as bad and as corrupt and futile as it seemed, could've-should've been reformed back to what it was in its glory days. So what I'm trying to say here is if your computer isn't working you don't throw it out the window and shoot the guy you bought it from, you open it up and try fix it. And I'm not convinced that all that corruption and the ills of the Republic were not entirely the result of the manipulations of Sidious or his predeceding Sithlords for the previous 100 years.

 

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. As a form of government, there is not a single thing wrong with an empire or monarchy. An empire can be one of the most prosperous and free governments around IF it is headed by a good and just emperor. Unfortunately, "good" and "just" do not exactly fit into Palpatine's vocabulary. So when you ask yourself if the Empire is really a good thing, you also have to ask if the man running it is good as well. Emperor Palpatine has the ultimate say on imperial policy, which means that he basically IS the Empire. So your question should actually be: "Is Emperor Palpatine the real good guy?" And if you have seen ROTJ even once, I don't think I need to answer that one for you.

 

He says "Luke, you'll find many truths we cling to depend on our own point view." You notice that Obi-Wan doesn't say all truths are relative, which given that the Jedi for good or ill do operate to an extent on moral absolutes, it makes more sense that he would believe many do than it does that all do.

No, but an objective perspective(though it's questionable whether or not anyone is actually objective) is one of the ones that says the Empire was evil, unless you want to argue that slavery and destroying planets aren't evil acts.

 

Possibly. But its unlikely and always a risk. Power corrupts. And if you have a system where one person has all the power and cant be removed then you are more than likely going to end up with a despot in charge. It takes an ambitious person with a degree of selfishness to get into political life and make it to the top. With this in mind, you arent ever going to have a purely selfless, wise and compassionate person in command and thus, corruption is always a high probabilty....and thus the vast majorities of Empire's are highly negative.

 

What about Luke Skywalker? Is he a freedom fighter or a terrorist? He blew up the Death Star, a LEGAL government station, and probably killed 1,000+ innocents in the process. Bet there was a baby day care center on there too. Well, they're all dead because of Luke. So what's the difference between him and Timothy McVeigh? The only difference is Luke killed a lot more, and in the end overthrough the government (while McVeigh failed to create the spark in his revolution to do so). So McVeigh was considered a terrorist, while Luke is a hero? Why is this? Only because Luke was successful, while McVeigh failed.

 

Well, ya see, Timothy McVeigh was a reall person who killed real people in the real world, and Luke Skywalker is a fictional hero.

While I appreciate the post/modern coffee shop armchair-anaylsis, I'm not sure if it's in good taste, much less valid on any level at all, whatsoever.

Thanks for coming out, though.