Is the EU being destroyed by the PT???

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ritual, Feb 19, 2001.

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  1. Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Pity Dewlanna didn't try giving her kids the real SW of the films, rather than the imitation of the EU.
  2. A Smuggler's Spin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 3
    Certainly a pity that she decided to read to them, instead of sitting them in front of a TV all day. Blasphemy :eek:b
  3. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Thank you Spin. :)

    Actually my kids HAVE seen the movies. and they, like their mother, have found many more hours of entertainment in the novels and short stories.
  4. wild_karrde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    The PT doesn't contradict the EU in any way. In fact GL went out of his wat to integrate the EU into TPM - Coruscant, credits, double-bladed sabres, Sith, Senator Palpatine. All of these were created in the EU and were included in TPM.
  5. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Sith, Senator Palpatine"

    Actually those have been in early scripts for a long time. Vader was always a sith and he was no created in the EU.
  6. wild_karrde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    Oops, your right. Valorum was the Sith in the original script.

    But Palpatine was first used by Alan Dean Foster in the novelization of ANH.

    In the originals it was Emperor Cos Dashit.
  7. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    But adf didn't come up with the name palps, it was in lucas notes.
  8. wild_karrde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    Well, if you want to get technical, according to those fanboys in the P(SA), nothing is canon until it's in a movie. Since it was published in the EU before in the movies, that makes it EU (according to their crazy logic).
  9. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    The star wars novelization has never been part of the EU. It's part of the canon hiarchy. Lucas notes are not the EU, they are just notes.
  10. Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Dewlanna:

    "Actually my kids HAVE seen the movies. and they, like their mother, have found many more hours of entertainment in the novels and short stories."

    Why?
    I'd like to know why some people have this view.
  11. A Smuggler's Spin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 3
    Some enjoy visualizing things for themselves. Not being shown every little thing.

    Personally I enjoy writing. So I get more out of your average book, than I get out of your average movie. For me I enjoy seeing things in my mind, rather than seing someone else's view. I prefer mine over there's [face_clown]
  12. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    TalonCard " Oh, for heavens sake! If you're going to be mad about it, give us at least one example where this has happend!
    As far as I know, the TPM hasn't contradicted anything that hasn't been fixed by LFL."

    The time scale is all off for the Clone Wars. With what little information LFL gave Zahn when he asked about the timing of the Clone Wars before writing HttE, Zahn guessed wrong about when GL would set the rise of the Empire and the Clone wars in Episodes 1, 2 & 3 (at the time no one was sure there WOULD be episodes 1, 2, & 3)
    I still don't know why GL chose to ignore the official timeline that had the GL/LFL stamp of approval.
    . Not only does GL ignore this, but he ignores the apparent ages of Obi Wan and Vader in ANH and their ages as previously approved in the Guide to the SWU.


    As Jeremyguy says "It just means that we have to be more creative as readers." Fortunaley SW readers are, for the most part, intelligent beings with good imaginations, so we have little trouble fitting the books and movies together.


    Mastadge said "In my opinion and personal experience, the EU <i>is</i> Star Wars. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something."
    Yup. (And I suspect what they are selling are action figures and t-shirts)



    yoddles: I agree with your post But not your language...sorry Mom mode kicked in for a minute)
    . It doesn't matter to me what GL does in his movies, the books are still my favorite.
    The EU kept Star Wars alive in the years between movies.


    Genghis12 : Good points. Just as you still enjoy your Marvel comics, I will continue to enjoy the books


    Smashalot says" The PT was always bound to disrupt the EU. There was never anyway of avoiding it."
    Sure there was. GL could have given Zahn a straight answer when Zahn asked about the clone wars....
    Actually GL couldn't have, because he hadn't figured it out himself yet.

    What SHOULD have happened, (since GL hadn't decided what happened in the years before ANH), was GL should have followed the "history" that he and LFL had put their official seal of approval on.


    Gav Daragon "On a more personal note to that however, my choices on contradicting events will depend on what I like better.
    But I normally go by what has happened (or in this case, been published) first. If I have read something and then something else comes along that completely goes against it, I would have a hard time rationalising the second telling with the first, rather than the other way round. Does that make any sense? "
    Makes perfect sense. Despite what the canonists say, in MY heart and mind, it is Lucas who has things messed up. 6 or 12 hours of visual and audio entertainment can not come close to giving me the pleasure that the countless hours of reading SW literature has given me.
    (Personal opinion based on my entertainment preferences.)
  13. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Yes, there are things about EU that the PT is contradicting:
    *Timing of the Clone Wars
    *Training of Jedi (Master/Padawan instead of Academies & such, as well as being trained from birth)
    *Two Sith instead of a Sith Brotherhood (although that hasn't necessarily been contradicted, depending on your POV)

    On the other hand, there's a lot of EU stuff that has been "canonized" in the PT:
    *the name "Coruscant"
    *Senator Palpatine being the same as Emperor Palpatine in RotJ (originally, Palps was simply the 1st Emperor)
    *Boonta Eve
    *the double-bladed lightsaber
    *credits
    *the term "Sith" if you wanna go hardline canonist.

    So, we'll just have to see how it turns out...
  14. Maulicious Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2000
    The PT can't destroy the EU, but there might inevitably be errors in continuity.
    "Lucas contradicts himself" -- that's just one way to say it. How about this way: He changed the story as he developed it further, thought about it longer, over years in fact. It evolved over years -- differently than what he first thought and planned and announced. That happens. So what?

    Obviously all the EU authors can't know what happened in the PT, cause Lucas hadn't and hasn't let that part of the saga out yet. For example, just knowing Amidala/Padme's name is a big item of knowledge. Knowing how and why she first met and knew Anakin. Many of the novels we enjoy would be very different if written now.

    This all doesn't bother me. Lucas should absolutely not try to please the EU crowd in writing the PT, and in the end he has to make the movies he wants. There are many many people who see the movies and don't buy books, etc.
  15. Maulicious Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2000
    And in the end, they're *just* movies, and *just* books, etc. Take it with grain of salt, I say. There are many problems in our real world that can benefit from our attention.
    (gets off high horse now) :)
  16. Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Well, I'll just reiterate my point that if you prefer EU to the films, then you don't understand what Star Wars is.

    Furthermore, just because the books give you more time occupied than the films is irrelevant. Quality, not quantity. I've got far far FAR more out of TPM (the weakest film yet) than every single EU book combined.


    Turning to another subject, just because Lucas has things like Coruscant and double bladed lightsabres allowed in the films does not validate EU. Chyren made an excellent post where he comprehensively demolished this claim. Now if I can just find it...
  17. A Smuggler's Spin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 3
    C.A. that has to be the most insane comment I have ever heard. Um seen.

    I'll put my understanding of Star Wars up against anyone. I do it on a regular basis here. I like the EU better than the films. So do many others. You welcome to your opinion, but be careful how you state such things, not everyone will take to kindly to that statement.

  18. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Yes, there are things about EU that the PT is contradicting:
    *Timing of the Clone Wars"

    yes an error, but ignorable.


    "*Training of Jedi (Master/Padawan instead of Academies & such, as well as being trained from birth)"

    Things changed between totj and the Tpm, loads of time for change. And after rotj, it's new period luke had to change the rules to get a jedi rebuilt.

    "*Two Sith instead of a Sith Brotherhood (although that hasn't necessarily been contradicted, depending on your POV)"

    no problem and their has been an acceptle fix, Eu is getting a story soon called jedi vs. sith that partly covers what happened.

    "On the other hand, there's a lot of EU stuff that has been "canonized" in the PT:
    *the name "Coruscant" "
    right you are, it used to be called something much different.

    "Senator Palpatine being the same as Emperor Palpatine in RotJ (originally, Palps was simply the 1st Emperor)"

    not true palpatine was a possilbe name for the emperor in some of lucas early notes, cos dashit was also a possible canidate. palpatine was first used in the novelization for a new hope, which is not EU, but is canon.


    "Boonta Eve"

    where was boonta eve first seen in the the EU. As far as I know it was created by lucas himself for tpm.

    *the double-bladed lightsaber

    Yes, most likely taken from EU.

    *credits
    Not sure sure on this one, you may be right.

    *the term "Sith" if you wanna go hardline canonist.

    Sith has always been refered to by lucas, it's his word, not a EU creation. It's in the scripts and in the canon novilizations.

    "we'll just have to see how it turns out..."

    I fully agree, we will have to see what the next 2 episodes do to the EU.
  19. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 8
    C.A. apples to oranges. The movies and the books cannot be compared. Allston's books are funnier than the movies. Allston and Luceno made me cry. The movies didn't. Zahn delved deeper into politics than the movies did.

    But nothing can replace the visual sight of Vader and Luke dueling in Rotj or the visceral impact of the Imperial March in Tesb. And the characters saw their pivotal moments in the movies. The moment they changed, was for Han, Luke Leia and others in the movies. That can't be duplicated in books either.

    Maybe that's why I like such 'marginal' works as the X-Wing series. We get new characters and get to see them grow and mature and become every bit as real as Luke and Han were to us in ANH.

    The movies and the books go together like hand in glove. Neither can be discarded completely.

    And as for the timing of the clone wars, I prefer to think that Leia didn't have the right constant to switch from Noghri to Coruscant time.

    Please note, everything above is my opinion.
  20. Commander Antilles Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Outstanding post, Rogue One. :)
    You summed it up nicely.

    Personally, I think that the films are just as funny, moving, and political (in TPM anyway) as the books, though.

  21. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 8
    Thanks, CA. See what it all comes down to? Personal opinion. Ain't it great? How boring it would be if we all thought alike.;)
  22. GirlJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    Well said, Rogue 1 1/2:

    "But nothing can replace the visual sight of Vader and Luke dueling in Rotj or the visceral impact of the Imperial March in Tesb. ...The movies and the books go together like hand in glove. Neither can be discarded completely."

    Exactly! Four pages of description of the Death Star blowing up is nothing like sitting in a real theater watching it & listening to it in THX.

  23. Gav Daragon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2000
    star 5
    Thanks for agreeing with me Dewlanna :)

    I agree that you can't compare EU with the movies - they are different media. But there have been experiences the books have given me that the films haven't. And, while there will only be 6 films (9 at the most) the EU could go on for ever - I enjoy reading up on what happened with the characters after the events of RotJ, and if teh stories continue with their desecendents then so be it
  24. yoddles Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2000
    star 3
    sorry about my language, but i stick to my point, TPM and the whole timeline lucas wrote for the preqels screws up the noghri darth vader incident but im sure we can change the number of years they have been indebted to the empire to make it work into the timeline, in darth maul shadow hunter there is no mention of exar kun or the original sith from the tales of the jedi era but since redemption is coming out im sure this will be explained, besides exar kun probably isnt mentioned because darth sidious doesnt waste his time researching about losers like him....,but in the book adegan crystals are mentioned as well as mining them in that system and this system was mentioned in TOTJ just thought you'd like to know.
  25. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    The noghri darth vader thing has to deal with the fact that noghri honoghr time is not the same as galactic standard time.
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