Is the EU being destroyed by the PT???

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ritual, Feb 19, 2001.

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  1. Nord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 4
    To directly answer your question, Darth Ritual, I believe GL has every right to decide how his movies will be told. Perhaps the EU will not be harmed. As long as there is enough room to expand, new/old authors can always fix whatever doesn't fit. There will always be a way. :)
  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Also canonized - Z-95 headhunters and the planet Tund.
  3. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Dewlanna...
    "Genghis12 : Good points. Just as you still enjoy your Marvel comics, I will continue to enjoy the books"

    Yes, same idea. However, Marvel actually didn't earn the lion's share of problems. I actually meant the sum total eu, not just Marvel. For example, there's many people who found Splinter of the Mind's Eye rather disturbing because of the Luke & Leia interaction. That's because Alan Dean Foster made the thing in 1978 without the benefit of knowing any future plans. I guess my point is that there was a whole eu's worth of stories written in the novels, newspaper strips, comic books, children's books - everything we have today. And it fared rather well. The eu wasn't "destroyed." There's no reason that it can't survive yet another movie trilogy.

    RingoJuna...
    Limiting EU to just literature for sake of discussion (since those are the only numbers I have) the EU accounts for a very small fraction of SW fans. As of now, there are combined total of 10 million Star Wars books in print. Using a combined total of Star Wars movie tickets sold - well there are a whole lot more than that. But, certainly the EU has an "effect." Another way to look at it is that even if someone drops a pebble into the ocean, there is an "effect." It's a small effect, but it's there.
  4. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    yoddles said "darth maul shadow hunter there is no mention of exar kun"
    Um, he's MENTIONED, but not much more (I'm only half way thru, so maybe he gets more but I doubt it.) I feel as tho this mention was just thrown in so the fans of the Sith comicbooks would be appeased and not say that Maul's lightsaber was nothing new, that the idea was stolen.
    Page 12 " Any Jedi could wield a single-bladed lightsaber; only a master fighter could use the weapon first designed by the legendary Dark Lord Exar Kun millennia ago"
  5. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    f.
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    Commander Antilles wants to know how I can possibly like the books more than the movies, and he doesn't want to hear about there being just 4 (6 or 9) 2 hr movies as opposed to 75 or so books, so I assume he doesn't want to hear a comparison of spending $5.99 for a paperback that I'll enjoy for days rather than spending $7 or $8 for a movie that will entertain me for a couple of hours. So I'll leave those discussions and go on to the deeper reasons.

    Several people have had outstanding posts on this subject and I thank them for understanding that some people are readers and some are watchers.

    I find watching movies a very passive form of entertainment that requires little input from my imagination. Which is fine if you want a couple of hours of entertainment. And frankly, that's about all any movie (other than "The Diary of Anne Frank" and "Ghandi" and a few others) gives me. A couple of hours of entertainment and then it's over
    Reading a novel requires some active mental exertion. Imagining what various beings look like, creating one's own vision of a Nightsister or a Vong ( or, more pleasantly, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, Bror Jace, Tycho Celchu and the rest of the non-movie Rogues). Setting the scene in one's own mind, bringing one's own experiences into play. For me and many others, this is the joy of reading and the joy of Star Wars. This is probably why I'm not fond of the comics. For me, the comic books are just still silent movies that give me more visual information then I want while not providing enough story.
    Another reason I find the novels more enjoyable either the movies or the comic books is the depth that a novel can explore. A movie is limited to 2 maybe 3 hours, not much time for details and in depth character study, not much time for intricate subplots. In depth characterization, complex plots, a larger view, and the glories of using one's own imagination are what readers thrive on.

    I have no problem with people enjoying the movies and watching them over and over. I just get my entertainment in a different way.
  6. RingoJuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 3
    I'm kinda impressed with this thread. People are getting along, ideas are being shared, it's kinda happy and fluffy. Makes me want to sing.
  7. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    I agree with you completely, Dew.

    I just want to add one more point. An author isn't limited by any budget.
  8. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Nope, not limited by budgets, just word counts.

    It's a shame that DelRey seems to want such short books. A lot of story is ending up on the cutting room floor.
  9. Jagged_Fel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2000
    star 2
    "Yes, there are things about EU that the PT is contradicting:
    *Timing of the Clone Wars"
    I don't care too much about this but I chalk it up to bad memories, messed up records, Palpy creating new calendars, Y2k bug, etc.

    "*Training of Jedi (Master/Padawan instead of Academies & such, as well as being trained from birth)"
    I actually like the way it is going. Luke started out with very little info and is creating an order similar to the PT order. It gives an insight to how the Jedi were originally when they started being active defenders.

    "*Two Sith instead of a Sith Brotherhood (although that hasn't necessarily been contradicted, depending on your POV)"
    There was a lot of confusion during this time and more Jedi were susceptible to going to the dark side (actually dark Jedi or Darksiders if you will). But the Sith has and will be explained in TotJ and Jedi vs. Sith.

    That's without blaming authors, companies, etc. though.

    Personally, the PT is increasing EU. But if you are talking about OT EU then there is less of that certainly. I think the PT has strengthened EU, just like PT EU has strengthened EU.

  10. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    And I enjoy the books a whole lot more for havig a first in the SW franchise: military strategies and tactics that make sense.
  11. Tobi-Wan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2001
    star 1
    The reborn emperor is a problem. Anakin brings balance by doing away with the Sith according to GL in ROTJ but the emperor didn't die. He comes back one or two times as clones. Do you think that the books and comics will in the end be edited in order to keep the EU uncontradicted by the PT?
  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Not especially. Obviously, the Reborn Emperor is a problem, but most of the post-OT stuff is safe it seems. The PT has no commentary on most of that, although the whole Rule of 2 seems to negate the possibility of all those Dark jedi the Emperor supposedly trained.
  13. JohnColtrane Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    Forgive me if this has already been discussed.... don't feel like reading all 100 or so posts in this forum. Has GL actually even read any of the EU novels (other than SOTME)? If so..anyone know which ones he might have read? It might be a little hard to avoid continuity errors if he doesn't know what he is even contradicting. =o)
  14. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    You know this arguement reminds me of one that I once read in a Star Trek Literature Forum.

    In that forum there was a lot of frustrated fans of the books who didn't understand why Paramount Pictures wouldn't make the Star Trek novels canon.

    Well the Senior Editor of the Star Trek line, John Ordover frequents that message board, he has a nice rapport with his readership and he had this to say.

    Star Trek novels - and for that matter Star Wars novels as well- are published in the thousands. The Star Trek TV Shows - and the Star Wars movies- are watched by millions of people.

    Now it would be unfair to the millions of people who watch the shows - and the Star Wars movies- to make references to events that only happened in a series of novels - that only a few thousand people have read.

    Now you guys may feel it's unfair to you to have the books you spent money on be contradicted by the movies.

    But you should have gone in knowing they would be.

    The Star Wars novels are no different than action figures or trading cards or video games or any other peice of merchandise. They are all a part of Lucasfilms marketing department. They are a device to keep public interest in Star Wars high. They are nothing more and nothing less than that.

    They should not be treated as anything more or less than that.

    If you guys make them out to be more than that then that is your folly and not the problem of George Lucas.

    As for whether or not TPM would have been a hit without the EU. It would have been.

    How do I know this?

    Well if anyone over the age of 24 doesnt know that fact then they must have been sealed in a time capsule for the last couple of decades.

    Star Wars was one of the most phenomenomally successful movie series of all time. An entire generation grew up worshipping Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, Darth Vader, etc, etc, etc...

    Star Wars was the MYTHOLOGY of Generation X. It was one of the defining elements of childhood.

    I am sure those of you who grew up in the 70's and 80's have fond memorys of having make beleive lightsaber duels with baseball bats, of playing with your Kenner action figures and reading your Marvel Comics.

    How could you not?

    Star Wars was THE thing when we were kids.

    When the first of the Timothy Zahn books came out it was an instant best seller.

    Why?

    Because it was so well written?

    Yes and No. It was well written but it's not like Tim Zahn was a brand name like Stephen King or Tom Clancy. His name couldn't have sold a Star Wars book at that point in time.

    What made Heir to the Empire sell?

    The name Star Wars.

    It had been eight years since Return of the Jedi had premeired. An entire Generation hungered for more Star Wars... But aside from some Ewoks movies and some cartoons nothing more came...

    And then the novels came out. They sold well.

    Because they were Star Wars novels. Our hunger was momentarily sated.

    The series came out continued to sell and Star Wars fans frankly got pretty spoiled. New action figures came out, fans bought em, new books, new comics.

    The Lucasfilm marketing machine at work.

    It wasnt the EU that caused this hunger. It was the hunger for new Star Wars.. Any Star Wars.

    And then the Star Wars: Special Editions came out. And did phenomonally.

    Did the EU help? Sure it did. It kept awareness of the product alive. And a Generation that loved Star Wars got to relive it all over again.

    And then we got our first new big screen Star Wars.

    And it was a monster hit, was embraced by the American Public and the fans in general.

    Yes it was panned by critics but then so was the OT.

    There is a minority that tear it apart but damned if I know why, it's no different from the OT.

    There are some EU fans who credit the EU for TPM's success but they're delusional. The EU is a marketing device. Thats all it is.

    Dewlanna Solo, I admire the fact that your children are readers, I am expecting a child in December and I certainly plan on reading to the child and perhaps even playing some of the Star Wars Aud
  15. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    'Is the EU being destroyed by the PT???

    Personally, I don't care. If sacrificing the continuity of the EU (which is screwed up anyway) means that the PT can be made, then so be it. I like the EU. they're nice stories and all, but if I have to chose between GL realising his vision through the PT and the EU, the PT wins hands down w/o ANY contest.
  16. Jedi----Cost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 1
    if lucas dose say the books are cannon than why did he give Del Ray a list of characters that they could not kill off

    i think lucas did this is because if he ever desides he wants to make a sequal trilogy he can have the people he wants and not contradict EU


    i really like EU and i think it whould be really cool if they put some of our favorit died jedi [neeja helson, kam's dad and many others that had appered on the books,
  17. mena_lyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 3
    Okay, here's my 2 credits--

    Do I want GL to alter his "staggering creative vision" for the sake of minor continuity? Make this MUCH more difficult for him by making him conform to timelines? No. However...aside from the timeline thing (which there's not much helping) there's really no large reason for him not to include things from the EU when appropriate. The post about ST & SW said something about not it not being fair to fans who had never read the books to make them cannon. Why isn't this fair? As things come up in his new movies, they can just be re-explained as if no one knows...but still be the same. Whatever, though. If GL wants to make things tough on EU readers, so be it. I'm not gonna mess with him. He brought me SW, so I'm not complainin'.

    I like the movies better than the EU, but that's because I'm a visual person. However, I can't say that if Zahn's books were made into movies that I wouldn't like them better. See what I'm saying? I'm a big EU fan and supporter, (btw, as a member of the EUDF, I commend you all for handeling this thread like adults) but just extra enjoyment.
  18. Matthew Trias Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
  19. KFSS-264 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2001
    Other than the earlier mentioned contradiction with ROTJ and Droids, I didn't see anything in TPM that did not line up with the EU. However, the whole Bobba Fett issue, which is soon to arise, is going to be a mess. Lucas is going to ignore the entire Mandalorian story line, and Bobba Fett is going to be a clone? That is not how it is suppose to go, is it?
  20. mena_lyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 3
    I don't know if the movies will show this far, but if rebellion isn't spawned by Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Garm Bel Iblis (all THREE) then I'm gonna have some problems. (There are a few others involved in this process, but they aren't named)
  21. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Why should they? It's not like Joe Average Viewer has read or even heard of TTT. It's Joe Average Viewer who makes the box office, not the rabid fanboys and fangirls.
  22. Muke_Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2000
    star 4
    I hope noone here thinks I hate the EU, I dont, but I had to explain the realities of the situation.
  23. LanceJade Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 4
    Well, I'll just reiterate my point that if you prefer EU to the films, then you don't understand what Star Wars is.

    Ehhhh? Actually, I grew up with all of the movies. My best friends and I watched The Empire Strikes Back at least every time we got together. I love the movies... all of them. But I enjoy the EU much, much more!

    It was actually Heir to the Empire that got me reading any books when I was in 6th grade. I fell in love with the way Zahn wrote the books. How Thrawn could be so smooth, and yet the poetic fate he received. I would not ever give up the movies, but I do enjoy the books more.

    When I read RoTJ's novelization, I was amazed. There were little bits and peices in there that I didn't catch in the movies. Does this detract from them? No. The EU only adds to the enjoyment. It builds apon the success of the movies, and expands one's imagination.

    So, do I not understand what Star Wars is?

    Furthermore, just because the books give you more time occupied than the films is irrelevant. Quality, not quantity. I've got far far FAR more out of TPM (the weakest film yet) than every single EU book combined.

    Wow, Im sorry to hear that. I enjoyed TPM, but I still believe that I got more quality out of reading Darksaber. When I was 16 or 17, reading late at night, hoping, praying that Daala and Pellaeon would be stopped some how, and that Callista would still be alive... that was anticipation. That was tapping the full use of imagination. It was exciting.

    The TPM was exciting. But it isn't really comparable. The EU (which includes the comics, the books, the games), has given me quantity of and quality time which has surpassed my movie watching experiances.


    Turning to another subject, just because Lucas has things like Coruscant and double bladed lightsabres allowed in the films does not validate EU. Chyren made an excellent post where he comprehensively demolished this claim.

    Why do we need to validate it? It already exists and is a proven force. Ya, its nice that GL used the information, but as we all know, he didn't have to.



    Once again, its just an opinion. There really is no right or wrong answer to it. :D
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I tend to think that very little has been contridictied. Mainly Dark Empire. Tales of the Jedi takes place far enough back to still count. Lucas goes to 2,000 years ago. Eu goes to at least 5,000. The Sith War could've caused massive changes in Jedi structure. Lightsaber colors can be fixed. Boba Fett can still be Jaster Mereel, it could happen later. Can't say more on him as it is a spoiler. Timetales introduces the idea of two clone wars. I think that it should be used to fix the continuity. Some of the spoiler rumors show a great deal of differences between Zahn and Lucas. This could fix it and allow both sides to be happy. All the Dark Jedi trained by Vader and Palpatine in the eu can be explained. They are Dark Jedi trained by a Sith. They aren't trained in the Sith arts. Stackpole's Jedi robe color theory could be fixed. We don't have to see ships or certain characters in the film. They are still there, ablit off screen. If you want it to fit, you must work it out in your mind. That's what I do.
  25. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    A short, tongue-in-cheek response:

    Any "damage" to the EU done by the prequels is unlikely to exceed the potential damage done by the celebration scenes added at the end of RotJ Special Edition, particularly the celebration on Coruscant that suggested the CAPITAL planet was immediately freed upon the Emperor's death. These added scenes suggested far more strongly than the original ending of RotJ that the war with the Empire was over after the Battle of Endor.

    If the people at LucasFilm and licensed affiliates could come up with a fix for that apparent contradiction, I won't worry about the ability to "fix" any problems introduced by the prequels. Instead, I'll simply be happy with the fact that the prequels add far, far more to the EU than they could ever take away...
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