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PT Is the Jedi philosophy a hurdle in relating to the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DrDre, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's only greed in the context of a choice. Choose Bhuddism/Priesthood/the Jedi way OR choose a normal shared life with a partner. It is not permitted to have both. It's only greedy in that context because one has decided for themselves that it is permissible to be both Therefore having an undue benefit denied those that make the choice.

    It's like that old admonishment. "What would happen if everyone just thought like you did?" (i.e. wore an illicit earring/item of clothing/conspicuous hairstyle - The constant answer to which is always that it wouldn't make the supposed transgressor seem so bad. And it would only be a bad thing depending on the outcome and if such and outcome were assured.

    Assuming you have an ordinary healthy attachment to one person in your life, how would you feel if they suffered the same fate as Shmi and you were there to witness it but too late to intervene, and this happened in such a lawless place where you could not even contemplate seeking justice in the civilized sense?
     
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  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I seem to remember Obi-Wan going after Darth Maul with a vengeance, after the latter had impaled Qui-Gon Jinn with his sword. Was Obi-Wan so attached to Qui-Gon? Or is it just human behaviour to create strong connection with each other for mutual benefit? Anakin lost control in a fit of rage, but if you found your mother beaten and bloodied, would your first thought be:

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    For Anakin, it's not having a spouse that equates to greedy, jealous behavior; his behavior is/becomes greedy and jealous.

    While I don't disagree that Anakin's turn is spectacularly stupid, for Buddhists attachment is a poison. If you combine that poison with, say, a vision of "pain, suffering, death", a past vision of "pain, suffering, death" that turned out to be true, the stress of a galactic war, the predations of a psychopath, etc...you at least have the beginnings of a recipe for bad decisions. This is how a "good man" (which Anakin never really was) becomes (or can become) evil. It's not attachment alone that turns Anakin into a maniac, there's also quite a few external factors directly involved. Would Anakin have become a maniac if his mother hadn't died so traumatically? Probably not. Despite all of it, Anakin's fall wasn't quite unavoidable. It wasn't guaranteed. The whole meal could use a few more ingredients and more skilled cooking, though.

    It's the unbelievably stupid details of the fall itself combined with Anakin's generally repulsive character that sinks the tragedy, not the philosophy, imo.

    To Buddhists, all of us here are likely suffering from attachment. Yet, we're not all mass murderers (I mean, I am, but I'm assuming at least some of you aren't). So how does the average decent person become evil? Continuity (you might call this karma). A lot of this is out of one's control; nature and nurture. Your actions play another part in it.

    The idea is that the continuity of Anakin's life (slavery, the death of his mother, etc), combined with his actions/choices, lead him to tragedy and a life of evil. That's the idea, anyway. It didn't work for me, for reasons already mentioned.
     
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  4. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    well Kenobi's anger almost got himself killed at that point .

    But I'm not disagreeing with your other points , of course it's natural to love others , and of course therefore we can relate to Kenobi and Anakin's anger , the Jedi code on this is rather dogmatic and unhelpful . I can imagine how they arrived at it but as I said before - at this point the Jedi religion / philosophy is at a point where it needs reforming .
     
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  5. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Yes, but herein lies the problem to me. The evil is not in the attachment, and the suffering it causes in Anakin, but in the choices that Anakin makes. IMO the PT places far too much emphasis on attachment as a path towards evil, when in reality it's akin to a place of self-inflicted suffering from where many paths can be taken. The path of evil is a choice. It is not the desire which is sinful, it's how one chooses to act on those desires that might be considered evil.

    Each of our desires represents a destination. Now some of these destinations may have paths that are fraught with danger. The Jedi solution is to ban some of these destinations, rather than to teach their students how to walk those paths safely, and thus prevent walking a path of evil. In Anakin's case he was already on a dangerous path, but rather than teaching him survival skills, they just said he was in the wrong place. Good luck finding your way home!

    I would like to add, that if each of our desires is a destination, Buddha teaches that one should not get attached to any of these destinations, as they are only temporary, and getting too attached will prevent you from reaching the final destination of enlightenment. This interpretation also makes abundently clear why evil and attachment are wholly unrelated.
     
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  6. THX_1138biggs

    THX_1138biggs Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 9, 2007
    The Jedi weren't wrong in fighting in the Clone Wars. In fact they were basically drafted into the war.

    The senate wanted no one else but the extraordinary beings with Force to lead the Clones into the battle. This would ensure victory and defeat of the separatists. Sidious basically set the war as a trap for the Jedi. It is the duty of the Jedi to serve and protect the republic.
    They could not stand down and leave the republic behind. They are not reclusive monks. And here is where Sidious' trap worked best. If the somehow the Jedi did refuse to fight and leave they would be seen as "cowards" in the senate and the galaxy abroad. Palpatine (Sidious) would find a way to call them cowards and traitors and possibly hunt them down or at least arrest them, court martial them.

    Also, the Clone Wars were somewhat personal for the Jedi as a previous fellow Jedi member, Dooku, is now leading the separatists, and to many now seen as a Sith Lord. The Jedi Council could not let the image of the Jedi be tainted by one ex-Jedi declaration war on the Republic. So they may have also gone to war to right the wrongs of Dooku, feeling responsible to stop Dooku themselves.

    Also, war or no war the Jedi cannot do anything diplomatic without the consent of the senate. They are not completely free to roam the galaxy and start doing their peacekeeping. Again, they are there to serve the Republic. For example if a conflict erupts on a planet, who will the senate send first to settle the conflict in peace? The Jedi of course. This was illustrated in TPM.

    They were not wrong in leading Clones into battle because it was their duty, they were tied to the republic as protectors and peacekeepers and they needed to serve as well. Palpatine and the senate basically signed them up for it. But this was always Sidious' plan. To let the war thin out the Jedi.

    Maybe in the ST Luke may create a new Jedi Order that serves a New Republic, but is not tied to it diplomatically. More like reclusive protectors when times need it. This way if there's ever another galactic war the Jedi will be not be forced to fighter but choose. But this still is not the true Jedi way..... So this may not be the case in the current trilogy......

    The Jedi are not reclusive monks that hold all the power of the Force for themselves, and ignore the Republic. They are heroes. They sacrifice their lives, and many did in the Clone Wars for good against evil. They serve the Force and part of the Force is the Living Force embodied by all the living things (there is the living Force and cosmic Force). They would not be true Jedi if they stood aside while innocent people died in the Clone Wars. Innocent people that embodied the Living Force. They would be seen as more arrogant if they had stepped aside and not fight in the war. They were humble. And they knew they needed to serve and fight. For the good of the galaxy.

    What was dangerous is how they went about serving because the war would test their Jedi ideals and beliefs. And some Jedi were not up to the challenge (watch Clone Wars, Barris and krell). While one in particular, Anakin, betrayed the Jedi way completely. But the majority of the Jedi fought without sacrificing their ideals. And tragically paid the ultimate price at the end of the war. Ultimately the war was a setup for Sidious to destroy the Jedi, because he knew they would have to serve.

    The movies do not spell most of this out, since the Star Wars movies are not the type of movies to stop and tell you how everything works. Through the visual storytelling of the movies it is shown how the Republic works from a political standpoint. We also see how the Jedi operate. But it is clear through the stories that the Jedi are there to serve the Republic and not be reclusive monks. If they wanted to show the Jedi as reclusive monks who only meditate on the Force they probably would not have placed the main Jedi temple on Coruscant but somewhere more remote. They also never say that the Jedi are "failing". It is just implied that they cannot see through the Force much of the future anymore because the dark side, which has placed itself very close to the Jedi on Coruscant, has grown stronger. This loss of power occurs only because the Sith are growing stronger as the war goes on longer.
     
  7. THX_1138biggs

    THX_1138biggs Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 9, 2007
    As long as I can tell there has been this notion from some fans that the Jedi Order in Episodes 1-3 is so arrogant that they are blind to Anakin's needs.

    The Jedi Order is not there to pat Anakin and say it's okay and to feel bad for him about his life on Tatooine. As much as Anakin needs love and friendship, he can still get that from his Jedi comrades in a brotherly/sisterly way. But whatever he was searching for was not the Jedi way. Attaching ones self to people as if you own them is far from Jedi like. If anything, Anakin should have left the order (or at least seek help from the Jedi) due to the fact that his emotional state and his need for power in ROTS was the perfect combination for turning to the dark side and a Sith lord.

    Anakin always wanted to become a Jedi, since a kid. The Jedi serve a greater role in the galaxy, and unfortunately they could never get involved in rescuing Shmi from slavery, and therefore help Anakin emotionally. Because what if they did so? They might as well have rescued all the slaves on Tatooine and basically gone to war with the Hutts. The Jedi aren't not looking to start any conflict. They are peacekeepers. They cannot go and show compassion for one slave and ignore others out of something sort of " special favor" they have for Anakin. They already gave him favor by allowing him to begin training at 9 years old. How many Jedi younglings in the history of the Jedi order were probably taken from families across the galaxy whom were living in poverty or possibly even war torn worlds and the Jedi, because of reasons of code and morals and political, could not save those recruited younglings' families. There were probably some instances such as that. And you can imagine that these younglings were given up, hesitantly, by families only to know that they would live better lives as Jedi then the environments they were born into. So there is some peace of mind there and some good being done there by just taking in a youngling to a safer environment and livelihood as a Jedi.
    Therefore, why would Anakin's situation entail any more favor? The chosen one assumptions (because that's all it was to the characters (though we knew that he was), it would not be proved in the story until ROTJ) could not add any favor either.

    The tragedy of Anakin lies in the fact that he's gifted and he throws it all away for being selfish. What he should have done is stop being afraid that Padme would die. He doesn't own her. In fact he's a Jedi, he should never attach himself like that to any person unless the person is about to physically be killed and he can do something about it (i.e Yoda saving obi and Anakin AOTC).

    Luke wasn't attached to his father, Vader, by renouncing to not kill him. Luke valued life and family and that is why he let go of violence. He was compassionate, not attached.

    Nowhere is it illustrated that the Jedi are "jealous" of Anakin's abilities. If it's mention it's always from Palpatine, who is just baiting Anakin with lies. Palpatine accuses the Jedi of being dogmatic but he's a hypocrite. All the dark side really is is a twisting and manipulation of the natural tendencies of the Force, which the Jedi mostly align themselves with.

    So the sith in that regards are a dogmatic cult that only believes in using the Force in this way, by corruption only. Palpatine keeps telling Anakin always "according to the Jedi the Force is this... According to the Jedi Force is that....". Why doesn't he just say "The Force is this and the sith corrupt it for selfish reasons, like power."

    So Anakin did not have the jump any hurdles, nor did the Jedi order have to implement any for his case. Simply the fact is that Anakin did not follow the rules; he got married, had kids, betrayed their order and so forth. In fact he betrayed the Jedi Order the moment he married Padme.

    He might have made a better Rebel general in another time in the galaxy than a Jedi. The role of a Jedi is pure sacrifice. It is living above one's self everyday of your life. The reward is living for something that's greater than yourself. Living for others in a detached, compassionate way. Living for The Force.

    But Anakin wanted a family and friends, which is fine, from a different point of view. But while seeking all that he forgot his responsibility as a Jedi and was no hero anymore. He should have left the order, found another job within the republic and gone with Padme to Naboo. Everything in ROTS was telling him he should not be have been a Jedi anymore, his power was too great even for himself to carry. It all went to his head. All the Jedi Council was trying to do was control what Anakin could not because they saw that he couldn't. They did no wrong in pulling him back. They were not going to expell him. If they were really against him they would have expelled him.

    But again, Anakin should have had wisdom enough to know that he could not control his power and left the order. Forget the war and everything. He said it himself "I'm not the Jedi I should be." So he should have left.

    The only other option would have been for Anakin to do the right thing ; let Mace kill (he is* too dangerous) or arrest Palpatine, listen to the council, follow the rules, and stop being afraid about Padme dying and be a true, responsible Jedi Knight. And to have some humility. This is how the good guys would have won. And Anakin would have helped fulfill the prophecy much earlier.

    Attachment is generalized in the movies. It is mostly talking about emotional attachment though. Other factors are fear. Fear of losing Padme is a form of attachment Anakin has to her. She represents his first love and she makes him feel better about himself. Jealousy is a form of thinking, perhaps unconsciously, that you "own the person" and they cannot be close or side with other people. Jealousy is another form of attachment. Anakin's love for his mom and his time on Tatooine with his mom, although tough because he was a slave, was perhaps some of the better times of his life more so than that of being a Jedi. So in a way Anakin clings to that time and his moments because it was essentially home. How many of us after being far from home (at least represented with family) and for a long time, long return to that place where everything felt good again. Anakin probably felt this way about his mom, his mom was his true home. She represented all the good times he had on Tatooine, including Podracing. And he may have still been attached to her in this way after he left Tatooine. Again, attachment is generalized in the movies. Dig deeper.

    All of these forms of attachments lead Anakin to greed, and this is the last thing a Jedi should be dealing with. He wanted more but as a Jedi you are supposed to be selfless. You live for The Force. You live to serve others not to keep others. Being a Jedi is a sacrifice. The ultimate greed Anakin had was his greed for more power, to save Padme. Greed for more power alone was what condemned Anakin to the dark side. Evil is not an entity to itself. You cause evil through actions formed by greed or fear (even unconsciously) . And Anakin had both.
     
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  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Well, I question how much choice really exists.

    I think maybe Star Wars sorta does, too. "You mean it controls your actions? Partially; but it also obeys your commands." That's a can of worms.

    I think when Luke sees Vader's severed mechanical hand, he kinda realizes that he's going down Vader's path; that, if he had lived Vader's life, he probably would have made the same choices and ended up the same. It's what shakes him out of his anger.

    I'm not sure how much of Anakin's choices put him on the path to evil when his thoughts, feelings, choices and actions are so heavily influenced by the Force, and the continuity of his life that was well beyond his control. At times it seems like "the will of the Force" sets up a series of events to push him along the path to the dark side.

    To go back to this (I didn't see your edit before I posted):


    This is what happens when you combine different religions from completely different backgrounds; it gets messy. George wanted his universal religious concept. Well, that has its complications, and it sorta fell apart when the PT got into more detail.
     
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  9. boonjj

    boonjj Jedi Master star 1

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    Jan 21, 2016

    If this is your line of thinking - and you disagree with Yodas quote - then shouldnt you feel more empthy for anakins actions?

    The movies dont place that emphasis on attachment, the jedis do. And characters' philosophy do not represent the movies philosophy. I think that is a fatal flaw to make, especially when there are many different characters and philosphys present within the movie vying and battling against eachother, and considering how the jedis view of attachment leads to evident negative results in the end.
     
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  10. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    You just have to read through Lucas' many quotes on the subject to see, that he endorses the Jedi philosophy. There's a clear subtext in the PT, that states attachment leads to jealosy, and all sorts of mischief. The fact that Anakin ends in limbo only enforces this view IMO.
     
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  11. boonjj

    boonjj Jedi Master star 1

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    Jan 21, 2016

    The dude himself is married with kids tho.. If he were in the order he would have been expelled long ago.

    Theres a difference between presenting and examining a concept and actually endorsing it wholesale.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    But it has for many. There are plenty of examples of couples who have such insecurities that they become overtly attached and become insanely jealous when they believe that their other interacts with someone outside of the relationship. One person will automatically become jealous and suspicious of infidelity and act out, sometimes violently. In TCW, Anakin thinks that Padme will leave him for Rush Clovis and he becomes hostile and jealous to the point of a physical altercation with Rush. In ROTS, Anakin becomes bothered by the friendship between Padme and Obi-wan and ultimately thinks that he's trying to take her from him.

    Feeling those feelings are natural and unavoidable. It's what happens next that makes all the difference.

    Ah, but he stopped himself from going to the dark side and didn't kill Maul using it. The Jedi know that they can feel emotion. The trick is to let go of that emotion and act in a more calm and centered manner. Remember that Obi-wan, like Anakin and Luke were all Padawans when tempted with the dark side. Obi-wan is snapped out of his rage by Maul's Force shove and realizes his error. He then calms himself and lets go, before taking him out. Luke realizes that he is becoming like his father and lets go of his own anger and hate, but doesn't kill. Anakin just goes full on bat **** crazy and kills everyone in the Tusken village.


    As a Jedi, yes, it should have been. That he had failed, that he should accept it and let go of his feelings of anger and hate, and leave with her body.

    The attachment is related because it serves as a reason for one to tread down the path of evil. Anakin doesn't want to be evil. He wants to be a good person, because he knows that he is good. But he finds himself unable to let go of his attachment and so he chooses to go where he shouldn't, in order to achieve his goals. And he tries to lie to himself about what he has done, in order to justify his actions.

    Life is filled with tests. We're all tested in some way and we have to decide on how to pass that test, to determine our own destinies. Sometimes, bad things happen to good people. And it can seem like there is a dog piling of one bad thing after another. I've been there in situations where it seems as if something was trying to make things worse all the time. The true test was in not letting the frustration and anger and uncertainty to dominate. The true test is to endure in spite of all the tragedy and heartbreak and doubt that life throws at you. Anakin tried to endure, but he let the negative into his heart and it never let go until the end.
     
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  13. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I disagree. The attachment is irrelevant, because it in of itself is not necessarily a path towards evil. The fact that Anakin wants to save Padme's life is not a path towards evil. It's a destination. Padme's death was not set in stone. Had Anakin acted differently she would not have died. Anakin chose a path of evil to reach his destination, when he should have chosen a different path. The Jedi made the mistake of assuming Anakin's destination can only be reached by taking a path of evil, when in reality if Anakin had done nothing he would have reached his destination, and Padme would be alive.
     
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  14. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    I find attachment/grasping vs. non-attachment to be a very relatable subject. The problem was that it simply wasn't very well executed in the story.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The fact is that attachment isn't required before jealousy and possessiveness comes in to play. The Jedi proclaim that attachment is a prerequisite of inevitable jealousy and greed. But that's demonstrably untrue and disingenuous. Spurious.

    It's like saying that riding a bicycle leads to becoming a reckless or inconsiderate bike ride and, ultimately, injury or death. So never ride a bicycle.

    If the Jedi are so sure of certain evil ends coming from attachment, why didn't they use their influence to outlaw attachments in the Republic?
     
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  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I think it's an interesting subject, and I can see how it would be important to a Jedi on his or her path to become one with the Force. However, I think it's a wrong to view it as a prerequisite of evil.
     
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  17. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    The Jedi don't believe that attachment inevitably leads to greater evil. They simply believe that it can do so, and that it distracts a Jedi from the truth of the force (the collective unconscious), and keeps one mired in the noise of the temporal world. It's really just pop Buddhism.

    That said, I don't understand how attachment is not a prerequisite for greed and jealousy. Without being attached to material wealth or people, it's pretty hard (nay, impossible) to become greedy or jealous.

    I think the problem with this perennial debate is that people interpret attachment narrowly to refer only to a romantic relationship. The concept is much deeper than that.
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But Yoda doesn't say attachment can lead to the darkside. If the concept is more complex then the wisdom of the Jedi should reflect that. But their narrow dogma is intended to control their members. Palpatine expoits Anakin's reaction to the Jedi's dogma. Not his attachment to Padme. Without prohibition of his relationship to Padme, it would not have felt so precarious, he would not have sensed the trouble that his anxiety was going to get him in to, etc, etc, etc.

    The only examples given are parental attachment and romantic attachment. Two of the most natural and often necessary aspects of human relationships. So it's no my fault if the debate is channeled towards those two things which the Jedi order prohibits because their philosophy cannot accommodate them and rely on their members to be obedient. That is the narrative of the film.

    Attachment to an ideal like, say, an idealistic doctrine is as fertile a patch for jealousy and greed (leading to fanaticism, fundamentalism and fascism) to spring from as the natural impulse to form attachments with individuals and groups.

    No doubt it's a deep concept. But it's conveyed the films in a way that doesn't really illuminate it or vice versa.
     
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  19. THX_1138biggs

    THX_1138biggs Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 9, 2007
    Attachment is generalized in ROTS. If you want to be specific, Yoda who speaks about this the most is talking about emotional attachment. But overall, forms of attachment are jealousy (emotional), avarice, clinging to people for various reasons (emotional), and fear of losing someone (death or rejection) (emotional) . All these forms of attachment are illustrated in the movies with Anakin.

    Why would Jedi outlaw "attachment" in the Republic?......
    ........................This had nothing to do with everyone else, only the Jedi. The Jedi have to sacrifice everything to serve The Force. They wield such power that they cannot have moments of anger or extreme suffering because that can lead them down a dark path and risk turning them into rogue Jedi or worse Sith. The issue of attachment are about the Jedi. Not the ordinary Republic citizen who has not given himself or herself to something greater as The Force (and to serve others).

    These are healthy restrains for* the Jedi. If a Jedi is not equipped to deal with these restraints, as Anakin was, then they shouldn't be Jedi. (Or at least work harder to be better Jedi.)

    You can't have a Jedi operating whose not focused or level headed. Their power is greater than the regular galactic citizen and that power is dangerous if not used safely.

    I believe fans who criticize the Jedi in the movies for being "dogmatic" or not open to relationships are not really taking into account the service the Jedi give as individuals to people, the galaxy and The Force. The Jedi work with the Republic and use their power for good. They lead public roles that have immense responsibility. Selfish desires are out of the question. It's a life of sacrifice.
    They are figures who live to serve others and by serving people, who embody the Living Force, they serve The Force as well.
    They were never meant to be reclusive, pacifist monks.

    With the exception of TFA, all Star Wars movies illustrate the Jedi serving others on missions, assignments, or training, such as Yoda serving the galaxy again by training Luke.
     
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  20. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Again I disagree. Yoda specifically states in ROTS:

    "The fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side."

    "Attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed, that is."

    What Yoda says is that these emotions are in of themselves paths towards evil. This is nonsensical to me. Fear, greed, jealosy, anger are all normal human emotions. It is not the emotion, which is a path to evil, it is how we act on those emotions which may be evil. Attachment causes suffering to the person who is attached. Now a person may choose to alliviate that suffering at the expense of others. In that case that person would walk a path of evil. However, a person might also decide to alliviate that suffering in any number of other ways. Take counseling for example, or find a hobby to take their mind of things. There are plenty of people who suffer greatly when a loved one dies, and have difficulty coming to terms with this fact. Now, by the Jedi definition these people are attached. However, no sane person would argue these people are a danger to society, or on a path of evil. Yet, this is exactly what the Jedi are arguing. If you become attached, danger is imminent, because you're about to embark on a path to hell.

    Fear -> Anger -> Hate -> Suffering

    Flying -> Falling -> Crashing -> Suffering

    Flying is a path to the dark side. It's just simplistic nonsense.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    When was that expressed in the movies? The only thing that they Jedi appear to adopt in place of whatever it is they let go of is service to the Jedi order, not the Force. It is the force which provides Anakin with the vision of his mother's ordeal and suffering. But Anakin is told to heed the order's command to let go of the people that this force vision is focused on, not what the force appears to be warning him about in relation to them.

    The Jedi may be idealistically viewed as some impeccably altruistic society. If that were the case though, its members would not need to be subject to such restrictions in order to be "selfless". Anakin's only experience of people around which he'd formed the desire to help came from Tatooine and the people he grew up with there who needed it. But the Jedi have no jurisdiction on Tatooine and once Anakin is recruited he has no remit to help anyone who inspired his feelings on the subject. His reward for letting go of his mother was to protect Senators whose attitude towards helping others is undetermined, although the Senate is rife with corruption so the probability of said senators deserving such selflessness is not going to be great. So much for selflessness.
     
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  22. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    Yes. Again, these feelings (attachment) can lead to the darkside. But they don't have to if one is able to control them and/or let go of them. And I agree. Personally, I think attachment (in the Buddhist sense, which is very different from love and compassion) is indeed negative and can lead to further negative consequences. The Jedi are right about that, and Anakin's fall is directly related to it. He is too attached to the physical world (including the people he professes to love), is afraid of death (both for himself and the people he is attached to) and this drives him to do evil in order to thwart/ defeat death. His feelings towards both Padme and Shmi aren't love and compassion in the positive sense. They are possessive feelings. Selfish feelings. Attachments. It is therefore his comparatively selfless love/ compassion for his son that redeems him.

    I think lots of fans are frankly too attached to the concept of attachment. :)
     
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  23. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Yes, but when Buddhism speaks of the suffering attachment causes, it's mostly related to the feelings of turmoil attachments cause to the individual. Buddhism internalizes attachment and the suffering it causes, while Lucas and his Jedi philosophy externalizes attachment, and emphasize the suffering it will cause to others, turning attachment into the linchpin between good and evil.
     
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  24. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Well yes, because Star Wars (OT and PT) are told in the mythic mode, which is all about externalizing internal conflict. That inner strife that most humans experience is painted on a grand, galactic canvas. That's the primary appeal of Star Wars, in my view.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Apart from Anakin immediately acquiescing to Sidious's desire for the Jedi to be destroyed, how do the film's convey that Anakin is selfish about his mother and selfish about Padme? And I don't mean selfish in the sense that you can be a Jedi, or you can honour your gratitude to your mother's nutruring and it being selfish to assume you can honour both.

    Nor do I mean selfish in the sense that you can share you innermost fears with someone without expectation of anything but understanding and empathy, or you can be a Jedi and that it is selfish to try and accommodate both.


    It is said that the ability to make that choice defines selflessness. If that were truly possible though, it would be a one off moment. You let go of one thing and leave room only for the other. Once it's let go, though, the thought of losing it should never enter one's mind. Since you can't lose what you haven't got. But it is apparent that Jedi need to constantly deal with the dilemma of losing things in order to remain on the light side.

    In short, I don't believe that people actually let go of anything in that situation. They just suppress any meaningful contemplation of the things at stake. Put the blinkers on. Which is not the same as letting go.
     
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