Saga Is the light side just as bad for the Force as the dark?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Seagoat, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2013
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    Think about it - the goal of Anakin as the Chosen One was to bring balance to the Force - not bring it into the light.

    A lot of video games (KotOR II comes to mind) have explored the idea that the light side can be just as bad. The PT shows that when there is too much light, it will sink into darkness, and the OT shows just the opposite.

    What do you guys think?
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  2. Rawne Force Ghost

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    I think this is one of the most confusing and underdeveloped concepts in Star Wars. Add in the Sith and midichlorians and you've got a potentially bottomless chasm of arguments.
    Last edited by Rawne, Mar 9, 2013
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  3. darthbarracuda Jedi Grand Master

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    I agree. I think Gray Jedi are the best. Real strength and wisdom comes from restraining oneself, but also knowing when to use one's abilities to come about a better resolution. Gray Jedi can tap into their emotions without going insane like the Sith. Gray Jedi aren't restricted by a dogmatic Jedi code that prevents a Jedi from ending a conflict that will last many more years to come.
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  4. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Name a "Gray Jedi" who tapped into their emotions?? Bull!

    Balance refers to the Force in it's natural untainted state: the light side. The dark-side is the corruption of the Force and needs to be removed (e.g. destroying the Sith) to achieve balance.

    The PT never shows a point where there is "too much light". In fact the users of the dark-side are manipulating events and causing wars throughout the PT...war breeds death, pain, crime....darkness!

    Some Jedi can fall into the trap of being too dogmatic and overly official...but the Jedi Code is not the light side of the Force.
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It must be noted that the man who was charged with "bringing balance to the force" had a hand in destroying both the Jedi and the Sith. Both must be considered a part of that legacy. That's the in universe way of looking at it that I prefer.

    The out of universe idea is that the whole "chosen one" storyline isn't very strong.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 9, 2013
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    No. The balance is between the light and dark sides. A Force that is all light side is all of one thing and none of the other. That is in no way a balance. It's as unbalanced as you can get. The meaning of the word "balance" does not fit that scenario in any way. Lucas has always portrayed the dark side as a necessary part of the Force in its natural state. His concept of the Force is two-sided, not one-sided.

    The Sith are not the dark side. Destroying the Sith does not destroy the dark side.

    That's because the PT is a time of too much dark. But the concept of a point where there is "too much light" was expressed during the third season of the Clone Wars series, though we have not seen that in practice and don't quite know how it would come about.

    There's a difference. He had a hand in an overall plan which destroyed most of the Jedi, not the whole order, a plan which was mostly carried out by clones and never depended on him in the first place. On the other hand, he directly destroyed the Sith by destroying Palpatine. Bringing balance to the Force depended on destroying the Sith, as said in ROTS; it did not depend on destroying the Jedi. Palpatine could have been killed in the Chancellor's office if Anakin had made a different choice, and in that case the Jedi would not have been "destroyed". The Sith were the threat to the balance of the Force.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
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  7. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    The Sith are not the dark side but their unbridled use of it taints the Force.

    And no, balance in reference to the Force is not equal dark and light. In the ENTIRE saga we never hear a reference to the "light side", the Jedi simply use and refer to it as "the Force". It's natural state just happens to be when one is calm, serene and in control of one's emotions. The dark-side is a tainted perversion of "the Force" and does not belong in it. Hence a dark-side organization like the Sith are tipping the Force into unbalance. Destroying them helps reverse the Force to it's natural state.
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  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Yes, it is ( though what "equal" means in this context may be somewhat open to interpretation ). This is explicit in various non-film sources including TCW with which Lucas was involved. Equal parts dark and light is an example of the kind of thing connoted by the word balance, not a one-sided Force which is of a single polarity.

    Yes, we do; it's right there in TESB, just called by a different name, even if we ignore its appearance in the ROTJ script. The name used to describe it simply changed over time. It doesn't get thrown out because of a name change. It's also been referred to in EU and TCW.

    This essentially confuses the state of a person with the state of the Force itself. Who is "one"? Anybody? Or are you talking just about Force users? So the Force is only in balance when everyone is "calm, serene and in control of their emotions"? Sorry, that's not the case. It isn't consistent with the fact that there were Sith around before the Force went out of balance in the first place. Sith aren't generally known for being calm, serene and in control of their emotions.

    No, the dark side is a side of the Force, hence the name. From Lucas' own words the Force has two sides:

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil - everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation."

    By this rationale anyone not calm, serene and in control of their emotions unbalances the Force, so you'd have to go a lot further than destroying the Sith. You'd have to go to war against all emotional people. Serenely.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 10, 2013
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  9. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    No there is never a mention of the light side in ESB...you seem to be missing the quote. Anakin is the Chosen One meant to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. It's stated explicitly.
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  10. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Where is this supposed quote from Lucas from? and what does it have to do with what is said in-universe in the films? it has no effect on what is clearly stated in the films.
  11. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    And no, you don't have to go further than destroying the Sith according to the prophecy. Weird how it's clearly stated in the films huh? Yoda never states : The Chosen One must go on a crusade against every being in the galaxy!
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  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    It is completely consistent with the films. What you're claiming is not "clearly stated in the films" anywhere.

    Thus, any quest to make sure the entire galaxy is calm, serene and control of their emotions is doomed to fail. The fact that the Jedi are fighting the Sith, not emotions or behavior, is the point.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 10, 2013
  13. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    So you admit that it is stated in the films that the Sith must be destroyed to balance the Force? And that the "light side" is never mentioned? I'm just trying to confirm here because your twisting the words to make it seem like a point.
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  14. Khalil O. Jedi Master

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    Mar 9, 2013
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    Politcally, the light side leads to stagnation, the dark side leads to anarchy. Emotionally, the light side leads to being devoid of feeling, the dark leads to being a slave of feelings. Both shun love; neither one can stand forever on its own.

    *** rant alert ***

    In Kotor II, Kreia sought to destroy the Force to end the devastations that its fluctuations between light and dark caused on the galaxy. The Exile learned to live without it, proving that life without the Force was possible. The paradox was that although much harm came from the Force, it also imbued its users with the potential to accomplish unimaginable feats. From the mouth of the snake came a life-giving water. The Exile was superior to Sion and Nihilus because, unlike them, she tasted the power of the Force and had the strength to give it up; neither Sion nor Nihilus could. Sion was sustained by drawing dark power from the unimaginable pain he suffered; Nihilus was sustained by drawing dark power from the unimaginable emptiness (nihility) he felt. Instead of allowing themselves to gain peace, they feasted on this newfound power from the darkside of the Force, which ultimately ruined them. The Exile successfully convinced Sion to let go of his pain; when he did, he gained peace and finally died, giving up that which had sustained him. The Exile was able to defeat Kreia, but, ironically, it was because she chose to draw power from the Force and all life in it. When Kreia fought her, she was, in a sense, fighting Life, Existence - a battle she could not possibly win. Kreia had also condemned the Jedi for being unable to give up their power - in their case coming from the light side. But, again, the Exile had proven that one could "live rationally", if you will, without the Force; a person could have the insight and connection that the Force brought - and the untold power that came with such abilities - and willfully choose to abandon them. The Exile formed unusually strong bonds with others through the Force, and she formed them very quickly. When a pivotal moment came, the time to confront Nihilus, she chose to draw strength from her connection to others, rather than forsake them as she did in exile. She imbalanced herself in order to accomplish her goal.

    Neither light nor dark is "bad" for the Force on their own; the trouble comes from the conflict between light and dark. A neutral Force-user can't stay neutral forever; as Kreia herself said, "Apathy is death." Eventually, one has to choose a direction and follow it, and complex conflicts usually have simple struggles at their root: empire or republic, one or many, power or justice, myself or others. Life usually ends up somewhere in between the two extremes, and the dichotomy of light vs. dark continues on and on throughout the Star Wars mythology.

    Light is more favorable for living creatures as a whole but hinders progress and stifles individuality. Dark adds structure and allows individuals to fulfill their own potentials rather than hold themselves back to benefit the group, yet it usually collapses on itself, leading to constant fighting. It also oppresses the incompetent, while light holds the exceptionally competent back. To answer the OP's question, no, I do not think light is as bad for the force as dark is. Light's weakness is that it is overly idealistic; dark, on the other hand, faces all of the ugliness of reality head-on. Unfortunately, sometimes something undesirable needs to be done in the imperfect world that we live in. I think a decent balance is ~80% light, ~20% dark.
    Last edited by Khalil O., Mar 10, 2013
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  15. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    This is the best post I've ever read.
  16. Prodigy_Knight Jedi Master

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    The thing is I can never accept the Dark Side (DS) as artificial and a corruption of the Force, all sentient beings born Force Sensitive(FS) are also born with emotions, strip away both orders Jedi and Sith and live the Force Sensitives to just live in society at large.

    You will get some FS close to the LS from their increased empathy, if you can connect more with other people you're less likely to want to hurt them, but due to Murphy's Laws some FS will drift to the DS, a bad day at work or at Uni or a rough day with their girlfriends and you'll have all those feelings Yoda said are the path to the DS.

    My point is if to avoid falling to the DS you need such amounts of training as the Jedi partake in and a "free" FS can go DS so easily you can't label the DS as artificial or a corruption.
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  17. Anakin's Daddy Force Ghost

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    Aug 13, 2002
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    Right! Balance to the force means no Sith. And to answer the question this thread asks, the answer is no. The Light side or "good side" is not bad for the force. Good is good. :p
  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    This just underlines how philosophically confused lucas is, I'm afraid to say. The Yin and Yang, contrary to Western perceptions, is not evil and good, but a balance of all 'elementals' (life/death, light/shadow etc) and 'evil', such asthe concept might exist, is in action that corrupts that balance. In terms of Christianity, the whole culmination is supposed to be a great war between good and evil, where evil must be destroyed - Christianity is not based upon the notion of balance between the power of God and the power of the Devil...the idea is so wrong its difficult to know where to start.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Since you're asking questions I already answered, I'll just quote myself: it's right there in TESB, just called by a different name, even if we ignore its appearance in the ROTJ script. The name used to describe it simply changed over time. It doesn't get thrown out because of a name change.

    If you're merging together several religions, philosophical traditions, mythologies, etc., you're not going to get a one-to-one correspondence or something entirely faithful to each of its influences. One relevance of citation of the devil in this context is to reinforce the external duality central to Lucas' cosmology, not necessarily to suggest that the book of Revelation should be mapped onto the SW timeline. From Lucas' own Yoda-figure Joseph Campbell:

    The Chinese diagram symbolic of the tao represents geometrically an interplay of two principles: the yang, the light, masculine or active, hot, dry, beneficent, positive principle; and its opposite, the yin, dark, feminine, passive, cold, moist, malignant, and negative.
    (...)
    In all things the yang and yin are present. They are not to be separated; nor can they be judged morally as either good or evil. Functioning together, in perpetual interaction, now the one, now the other is uppermost. In man the yang preponderates, in woman the yin - yet in each are both. And their interaction is the universe of the "ten thousand things".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 11, 2013
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    If Anakin had a destiny to fulfill, then his role in the destruction of the Jedi cannot be overlooked as some would like to. It was part of his legacy, and surely an aspect of that destiny

    Something foreshadowed when the Jedi begin worrying about the possibility of "misreading the prophesy". It's not a coincidence that their order is decimated shortly after that.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 11, 2013
  21. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Anyone who thinks that the Jedi are pure as the driven snow and that the Republic is too needs to get and read the "Essential Guide to Warfare". There is a LOT of new material about the history of the Jedi and the Republic that casts both in more shadowed tones, and even some outright darkness.
  22. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    @Arawn_Fenn...the light side is never mentioned in TESB. That's a fact. If otherwise then show a direct quote from the film. In fact watch the entire saga and see if there is any mention of the "light side". It's simply referred to as the Force.
  23. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    ^Luke mentions the "good side" in ROTJ. And the existence of a Dark Side clearly implies the opposite.
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  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Facts ain't what they used to be. The light side is mentioned in TESB. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you get to rewrite history.
  25. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    The Light Side bad as the Dark Side? No, I don't think so...

    But it is quite obvious that, by the time the events in the Prequel Trilogy took place, the Jedi Order (not necessarily the Jedi themselves) were corrupt and blind to their shortcomings. The Jedi Order and the Old Republic had stood in peace for over a thousand years once the Sith had seemingly become extinct, but in the advent of their return in The Phantom Menace the Order's true colors began to shine. While the Jedi were honorable and righteous and had the very best intentions, their arrogance and their inability to sense the evil that lurked in their midst (Palpatine, of course) played a major part in their downfall. Add to that the Jedi's mistrust of Anakin Skywalker and The Prophecy of the Chosen One ("A prophecy that misread, could have been...") and it becomes apparent that in the final days of the Old Republic the Dark Side did indeed control not only the senate, but the Jedi Order as well. It is no wonder that Count Dooku ultimately left the Order and that Qui-Gon was so rebellious. Had Anakin never been seduced by the Palpatine and the Dark Side, I would not have been all too surprised if he ultimately left the Jedi Order on his own. Not to become a Sith, of course, but to escape the corruption and not have to hide his love for Padme from the galaxy.

    Flash forward now to the time frame that we are about to be entering in (hopefully) 2015. Darth Vader and the Empire had wiped out the majority remaining Jedi after the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan and Yoda learned one of the great mysteries of the Force from the deceased Qui-Gon Jinn and then passed their knowledge down to Luke Skywalker before their own deaths, and Leia was discovered to be Force sensitive like her brother and father before her. "Pass on what you have learned, Luke...", Yoda says while on his death bed to the last remaining Jedi. Assuming that we do actually get to see Luke passing knowledge of the Force on to a new generation of Jedi in Episode VII, I am very interested in seeing just how he changes the foundations and principles of the Order in hopes of avoiding the catastrophes that plagued the Order and ultimately led to his father's fall to the Dark Side and the Jedi's near extinction.
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