Saga Is the light side just as bad for the Force as the dark?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Seagoat, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Well then you aren't talking about Star Wars. You're talking about a blindered view of Star Wars.

    IMO of course.
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You could call it that, I prefer the term distilled.
  3. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I love a lot of the EU. But in this particular thread is in the films category and events that occur within the saga are being discussed. And going by the films alone it is painfully obvious that the Jedi are good for the galaxy and the Sith are evil.
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  4. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    The term is actually 'blinkered'.

    A great deal of the discussion in this thread is perfectly relevant and a number of good points are being made, but it's getting quite aggressive here & there, so tone it down or I'll have to lock.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 15, 2013
  5. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    how can you say that it's crap.....how many innocent people were affected by the dropping of those two bombs.

    The point I'm trying to make is that everyone who fights feels they are the ones fighting for the greater good!!!
  6. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    Which in a round-about way what I was trying to put across....with the Jedi gone the battle is won
  7. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    What battle? You mean the fact that the younglings might someday grow up to oppose a tyrannical regime? Is that what your saying justifies murdering them?
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  8. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Not everyone. Anakin for instance knew that what he was doing what wrong.

    "What have I done!?" - After helping kill Mace Windu.

    But he blocks it out and tries to convince himself to believe the lie that the "Jedi are evil" because he wants so badly to save Padme.
  9. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    Exactly. Anakin knew what he was doing was wrong, and he justifies his actions with his words. His tears on Mustafar are a further clue to this. As for Palpatine, he doesn't care what is right, except what is right for him and his aims. We know what his aims are; "Power. Unlimited power". His words about bringing peace and stability are for Anakin's sake, to help him justify himself. You can't argue that Palpatine wants peace and stability unless you ignore that he has set up the war and the instability leading to it. The Trade Federation only act in TPM at his bidding and with his assurances. I could go on, but I don't need to. You know all of this, so why would you argue, or see it, as everyone believing they are in the right? You must understand that Palpatine's teachings to Anakin in the opera house are intended to confuse Anakin's thinking - and even Anakin does not fall for it.
  10. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    This isn't really the place for this but...had the war gone on, how many do you think would have dies? You shoud, perhaps, understand the kinds of atrocities the Japanese Empire were capable of, and how they would keep throwing Japanese lives away for the glory of the Emperor.

    As for Alderaan being, possibly, at war or a threat the Empire which might warrant such an attack (to make some link with the above) there are Leia's own words "No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons! You can't possibly…!". Lest you should argue that this was a falsification by Leia that the Empire knew to be fals, we have Tarkin's response; "You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!"
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Mar 16, 2013
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Alderaanian gunships are mentioned in the RoTJ novel- but they may have been obtained by Alderaanian rebels, rather than manufactured on Alderaan.
  12. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I bet those gunships would come in real handy against the Imperial fleet.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Apparently they were handy at the Battle of Endor.

    In the ANH novel, after the destruction of Alderaan, Vader says:
    "The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough."
    And Tarkin responds:
    "The Senate is being informed of our action at this very moment. Soon we will be able to announce the extermination of the Alliance itself, as soon as we have dealt with their main military base. Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see."

    Oddly, this is after the Senate has been "permanently dissolved".
  14. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Who says the Force's untainted state is the light side?

    Which is the natural state, day or night? Life, or death? Creation, or destruction? The answer is neither, and both. There cannot be one without the other. Two sides of the same coin. Yin and Yang.

    Be a slave to neither.

    Sometimes the dark is required. When an animal dies, its flesh is consumed and its remains fertilize the soil. Death brings life to others. Perhaps a Jedi has to draw on dark forces in the name of good -- I think we can name a Jedi who did just that. Just don't let it become your master.

    Even though the words were spoken by Palpatine, how can any Jedi truly understand the Force if he pretends half of it does not exist?
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    You've certainly put the arguement better than any of the other pro-darksiders.
  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Which Jedi pretended that? All of them seem very aware of it.
  17. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Yet they know absolutely nothing about it. They fear it. As they say, fear of the unknown is ignorance. Fear also leads to something, some interchangeable emotional states, from what I recall. The supposed wisest of all, Yoda, was incorrect that the dark side will "forever dominate your destiny". He thought there was no turning back, but he was wrong. Because he didn't know anything about the dark side.

    I'm in no way pro-darkside, but as I've gotten older I imagine Luke must acknowledge it exists, and even understand it. It's like accepting your eventual death as inevitable certitude instead of fearing it.

    Another argument would be the existence of predators in nature. They have always existed. Nobody knows when the first creature ate another, but it seems to go back to the earliest complex lifeforms on Earth. We do not like predators, generally, but without them the prey species would have no natural checks and balances and would multiply endlessly, causing starvation and ecological disaster, probably a breakdown of the entire food chain. Is this dark? Yeah. But like the Force nature is neither light nor dark; it is both.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  18. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    Ignorance is bliss!
  19. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Again, says who? Knowing about something and using it are two different things.

    They merely know the consequences and don't use it. That's not fear, but self-discipline.

    Because he didn't know everything about the dark side, not because he didn't know anything.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    The title is oddly worded. Light side, dark side, both are "The Force" so how can "The Force" be bad for the Force?

    Which side is worse for individuals- for minds, and so on- that makes more sense.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 16, 2013
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  21. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Yoda never stated that there was no turning back. "Forever dominate your destiny". Vader's fall to the dark side DID in fact dominate his destiny. He was doomed either way. Had he survived Endor do you think the Alliance would have let him walk away because he killed Palpatine? He still would have faced the death sentence for his atrocities and war crimes. Yoda was very correct in saying so. Every dark sider we have seen had his destiny shaped by his actions.

    Your comparison of the Force to ecological disaster is incorrect. What disaster would we see from the Force existing in it's natural state without the dark side? None. With the dark side? War, pain, DEATH. The Force is an energy field created by all LIVING things. The Jedi accept that one must pass into the Force, accepting death. The Sith seek to impose their own will on the Force and use it's energy to perform unnatural acts.
  22. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    This is true - however, I don't think that the EU should be ignored even in threads like this. The films are less than 1% of all of Star Wars. EU is an integral part of the universe and should not be separated simply because it's not made up of moving pictures.

    No Force at all would be better, in my opinion. I sometimes find myself agreeing with those disillusioned old Republic Jedi who want to destroy the Force. Cruel in general?
    Last edited by thesevegetables, Mar 16, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Other Old Republic Jedi say that

    "without the midchlorians (which communicate the will of the Force) there would be no life"
  24. The Supreme Chancellor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Where are you guys going with this?
  25. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Granted it was in the prequels, but "Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone, he is, consumed by Darth Vader.".

    Empire: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice"

    Pretty clear Yoda considers the Dark Side a one way ticket.

    Well, what did we see in the prequels, the light side unchecked by the dark?

    Complacency. Arrogance. Ignorance. Weakness. Numbness. Detachment. Tolerance for "soft evil" -- slavery in the Outer Rim, the clone army essentially being bred for slavery. A naive, unprepared, malliable, numb, uncritical society. They are unprepared to fight evil and even tolerate it.

    The dark is needed to keep them suspicious, prepared, on guard. Prepared to fight for all the supposed beliefs of the light side -- truth, honor, justice, righteousness. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. The good men of the prequels did pretty much that. A society that faces no challenges becomes corrupt, weak, and arrogant.

    A species that faces no predator becomes weak, complacent, ripe for disaster. It stops evolving. Rabbits are a good example. Rabbits are cute and cuddly, but they are also food for everything.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
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