Saga Is the light side just as bad for the Force as the dark?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Seagoat, Mar 9, 2013.

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  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    And in RoTJ, the novel:

    "There is still good in him." he declared.

    Ben shook his head remorsefully. "I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine, now, than man - twisted, and evil."

    Luke sensed the underlying meaning in Kenobi's statement. He heard the words as a command. He shook his head back at the vision. "I can't kill my own father."

    "You should not think of that machine as your father." It was the teacher speaking again. "When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought ... your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever - he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will ..."
  2. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    OK let me flip the argument onto you -- what evidence is there that they know anything about the dark side aside from the fact that it exists?

    They know the Sith have been extinct for a millenia. They know the dark side is clouding their use of the force. They know they killed a Sith on Naboo. That's about it. They seem to have known about the rule of two (by Yoda's comments at Qui-Gon's funeral).

    They didn't recognize the Sith Lord operating under their noses. They didn't know or properly estimate his power. They don't know how the Sith operate. They refuse to believe what Dooku tells them about the Sith, even thought it is mostly truth and Dooku is himself a Sith.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    star 7
    "Anger, fear, aggression- the dark side are they."
  4. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Childish, uninformed fear. The Dark Side has cooties!

    Good people can't be angry, afraid, or aggressive? The Jedi should have been more angry about Qui Gon's death, about Syfo Dyas' death, about the blockade of Naboo. The Jedi should have been afraid that the Sith were operating but they couldn't detect them. They should have been aggressive about investigating Palpatine, Dooku, and anybody else involved in the conspiracy.

    The lack of anger, fear, and aggression killed their survival instinct. Apparently wanting to survive leads to the dark side too.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 16, 2013
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Which is not to say the Jedi don't feel them- they just don't "give in" to them- they don't let their emotions control their actions.

    Similarly, while Jedi are not supposed to mourn ("Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not") The Clone Wars: Wild Space, makes it clear that even Yoda is "heart-sore" after the Battle of Geonosis, and has to release his "lingering grief".
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 16, 2013
  6. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Yoda's various descriptions of the path to the dark side are not enough?

    No. Merely a description of what the dark side is, and to what extremes it can lead to those who give in to those emotions.

    Can't be? Who said that?

    Why? What would that angriness do?

    No. They should investigate it, not fear it.

    No, they should be rigorous and persistent. What would agressiveness do?

    Fallacious reasoning on your part.
  7. only one kenobi Force Ghost

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
  8. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    I just want to be clear here about what people are arguing. Am I to understand that the galaxy can only remain in balance while somewhere torture, slavery, war or some other form of suffering and oppression are taking place?
  9. Thefinalhack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 1
    The force itself is not good or bad it is the way force sensitives use it
    Say if Vader drew his power from the light side and rather than chocking people he mind tricked them into jumping off roofs. That would still be evil would it not?


    Sent via my astromech droid
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    star 7
    In Marvel SW Vader actually does mind trick an Imperial officer into walking into an airlock and spacing himself.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 16, 2013
  11. Thefinalhack Jedi Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
    star 1
    Yet he could have done that using the light side of the force and still committed murder (which is often considered bad/evil)


    Sent via my astromech droid
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Could he though? Maybe, as someone who has been "consumed" by the dark side, he can only use that.
  13. Thefinalhack Jedi Master

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    Mar 11, 2013
    star 1
    Maybe so but in theory a Jedi could use the light side to make someone commit suicide. Meaning the light side can be just as evil as the dark only light side


    Sent via my astromech droid
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
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    In practice, a Jedi would need to be motivated by dark emotions to actually murder someone.

    If the emotions are dark- wouldn't that ensure that the side of the force being drawn on to accomplish the goals, is dark as well?

    Thus, the Jedi ends up "using the Dark Side of the Force" even when it's just telekinesis, or Mind Trick.
  15. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Actually, if you had to sum up why the Jedi Order died, it is precisely summed up in one sentence right there. Complacency, arrogance, ineptitude.

    Or go ahead and mount an argument as to why it is fallacious instead of just leveling the charge and running away.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
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  16. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    No, I'm saying evil cannot be eliminated and in fact when it is (or appears to be), it leads to decay and weakness.

    My view is that good/light is not the natural state of the force, or anything for that matter.

    It takes effort, will, and character to be good and do good things. Simply "not being evil" does not make you good. It makes you passive.

    The natural state is both good and evil, predator and prey, life and death, light and dark, Yin and Yang.

    The dark side of the force is not something foreign. It IS the force, as much as the light is. No Jedi can truly claim to understand the force if he does not understand half of it. Palpatine was right about that much.

    As we saw by the state of the galaxy in the prequels, the absence of darkness certainly was not "balance" because the good people of the universe were weak and complacent. Yin without Yang.

    And back to your original question -- while the galaxy was at peace, there was slavery in the universe and it was tolerated. They bred people as lab experiments and used them as a slave army without thinking twice. "Soft evil" was everywhere in the Republic and they all turned a blind eye to it -- because things were good, because they weren't threatened. It was a "body politic" rife with disease.

    Since I brought up the "body politic" analogy, think of it like your body. You need to exercise it and keep a healthy immune system (in fact if you know how vaccines work, they give your body a very weakened form of the disease which teaches your body how to fight it in a dose that is not threatening, so it is prepared to fight the real thing). The absence of any threat leads to a weak immune system. And considering the light side of the force as the natural state, in "balance" is like a body living in an antiseptic bubble in constant state of sleep. It atrophies, becomes weak, and vulnerable to disease. It can be destroyed by a common cold. Which is pretty much what happened to the Republic.

    There can be no day without night; there can be no light without dark. In the Republic we saw light without dark, and the light wasn't really all that "light" or "good" at all as a result. It was more of a dying glow stick.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Why? Because your conclusion doesn't follow the premises.

    Running away? Like you did with the rest of my comment? Nice try...
  18. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Following suit again.

    I present logical arguments. Try it for once. You basically try to flame by discrediting the argument. You present a baseless illogical charge and run for cover. I know your game and it's weak -- and a waste of time.

    For starters, exactly HOW does my conclusion not follow the premise? It should be easy to mount the tiniest of arguments if there were any truth to it.

    And frankly, when you throw nonsensical barbs one line at a time, it becomes an editing nightmare to respond in kind with quotes three levels deep. Which quite frankly I think is a fact you rely upon to discourage someone shredding your fallacious responses.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
  19. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Despite my better instincts, I'll respond.

    The equivalent of saying "girls have cooties" or "Johnny is a booger face". Baseless name calling and uninformed fear. Hey I hear if you drink pop rocks and soda your stomach will explode.

    There. We've establsihed the Jedi do experience fear. Fear of the unknown -- fear of the Dark Side.

    Based on what, exactly? How would they know? They haven't encountered a Sith in 1,000 years, they don't seem to study the Sith and their ways, and they themselves know nothing about the Dark Side other than to be afraid of it. They also don't seem to have asked Dooku what he learned.

    Yoda... Something about interchangeable emotional states and forever being consumed...

    Motivate them to look into those murders a little more than not at all.

    Fear is a motivator. Like fear of being eaten by a lion will motivate you to run for your life. The Jedi don't seem to have been very motivated, as they sat on their hands for 10 years. Fear may have served them well.


    Blind Prisoner: You do not fear death. You think this makes you strong. It makes you weak.
    Bruce Wayne: Why?
    Blind Prisoner: How can you move faster than possible, fight longer than possible without the most powerful impulse of the spirit: the fear of death.
    Bruce Wayne: I do fear death. I fear dying in here, while my city burns, and there's no one there to save it.
    Blind Prisoner: Then make the climb.
    Bruce Wayne: How?
    Blind Prisoner: As the child did. Without the rope. Then fear will find you again.

    You should fear sticking your finger in a power socket. You should fear jumping off a 10 story building. You should fear running out into traffic. You should fear drinking a gallon of bleach. It's called survival instinct.

    You should get angry when one of your Jedi brothers is murdered. Rejoice that they transformed in the force, but be angry that they were snuffed before their time and against their will. Mourn them do. Miss them do. Attachment leads to relationships. The shadow of love, that is.

    Instill urgency and weight to the task. Make the co-conspirators nervous and cause them to make sloppy mistakes. We've established the Jedi were complacent and had no sense of urgency.

    Aggression may have caused them to test everyone in government for Midichlorian count. Aggression may have made them put pressure on Newt Gunray.

    "I know the squealers when I see them, and...".
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
  20. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Sure you do. That's why you avoided answering my questions and replies, and tried to "flip the argument".

    Sure I do.

    The irony...

    And it is. First, you create premises supported by baseless assumptions (i.e: the Jedi don't know the dark side, the Jedi fear this and that, etc...). And second, you use that to somehow "prove" that the Jedi lost their survival instinct when it's not only a baseless assumption (again) but doesn't have any correlation whatsoever.

    Nonsensical barbs? Your attempt at ad ridiculum doesn't make your lack of argumentation any less obvious. Meanwhile, feel free to refute my questions and replies.

    Fallacious responses? Where exactly? Again, feel free to prove how fallacious they are. Oh wait, there are too much quotes to do that, right? Very weak excuse...
  21. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Baseless? Didn't we see Yoda's description as accurate throughout the movies? No, it's not equivalent to anything you mentioned because it turned out to be true. And as such, proves that they know the dark side and it's consequences.

    No, try again.

    Irrelevant, it's not mentioned nor does it need to be. They know (probably based on experience, research, or common sense, although that's all speculation), as shown in the events protrayed in the movies.

    Saying the same thing again and again doesn't make it true. And the Sith are not the dark side.

    Why would they do that? And what makes you think he would say anything?

    No. He never said anything about good people can't be angry. "Can't be" and "shouldn't be" are completely different things.

    First, you are implying that they didn't investigate those murders, which you have no basis for (in fact, there is proof that they did, since they discovered the identity and allegiance of Darth Maul). And second, you are implying that angriness is the answer without any basis.

    But not the only one.

    Ah, mere speculation.

    Is that supposed to prove anything? Because as we've seen throughout the saga, fear led to horrible events and consequences. Are you denying that?

    Who's "we", and when was that established?
  22. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Not only is Yoda's description proven wrong, but it is in fact proven to be the most damaging misinformation in the saga. Yoda's description of the dark side completely falls apart no less than three times in the climax of ROTJ. Not only is Vader turned back to the light, but Luke taps into his darker emotions yet is not consumed by them, and it is love and attachment that turn Vader back to the light, which cause him to act selflessly for his son -- things which are forbidden by the Jedi code. Yoda couldn't have been more wrong.

    So in the end, Yoda was WRONG about EVERYTHING. It is Yoda who does the most damage in the saga -- because of his misinformation and fear of the dark side. The supposed wisest Jedi of all time got everything completely wrong.

    "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so" -- Ronald Reagan

    They are obviously afraid of it, and Anakin says so to Obi-Wan -- "I do not fear the dark side as you do." Explain how they do not fear the dark side. Yoda's warnings about the dark side sound like Cold War propaganda about the communists.

    They don't know anything about the Dark Side other than to fear it. Fear of the unknown. You are speculating that they somehow know about it yet the on-screen evidence is that they only have cold-war style fear and ignorance.

    Repeating a truth does not make it a lie. Nothing I said is false. And it must be news that the Sith are not the dark side. Are they good now?

    They would do that because they don't know a thing about the Dark Side, yet here is one of their own who has converted to it and become a Sith. A Jedi Master who has crossed over and studied the dark. Maybe even as a taunt he would reveal some of the secrets he has learned about the force that were shrouded by fear of the Dark Side.

    Beware them, they lead to the dark side, forever will it dominate your yadda-yadda.

    They didn't seem to know who killed Syfo-Dyas -- if they did, it would have lead to clues uncovering the order for the clone army and the erasure of Camino from the Jedi Archives. They didn't find out who Nute Gunray was taking orders from, they didn't find out this person was on Coruscant and was able to make actions come true in the Senate.

    Where in the films did they discover the identity and allegiance of Darth Maul?


    Only perhaps the most powerful.

    Fact.

    They didn't discover who killed Syfo-Dyas.
    They didn't discover who was behind the blockade of Naboo.
    They didn't discover who Nute Gunray was getting his marching orders from.
    They didn't discover that the Jedi Archives were tampered with let alone who did it.
    They let several mysterious events, including the death of one Jedi by a Sith Lord and the death of another under mysterious circumstances, lay uninvestigated.

    "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi". So do something about it, you idiot!

    In fact, it's even worse than I made it out to be. They are too blind to see things happening beneath their very noses. Palpatine's maneuvers to get elected Chancellor? Nope, nothing suspicious here. Template for secret Republic clone army runs to Separatist stronghold, nope nothing suspicious... Clone army ordered 10 years ago by murdered Jedi, nope nothing suspicious. Clone army hot topic of discussion in Senate but it was already ordered 10 years ago by a murdered Jedi, nope, move along, nothing to see here.

    Inspector Clouseau would be proud.

    Only Anakin showed any fear... Perhaps the Separatists/Palpatine showed fear of Padme leading the vote against creating a clone army. From my view, complacency and ignorance lead to far worse events and consequences than fear did.

    Are you denying the Jedi were complacent and non-motivated? It's either that or they did try and were extremely incompetent. Take your pick.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
  23. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It's not attachment that makes Anakin turn back, it's love. And neither love nor selflessness are forbiden by the Jedi code. On the contrary, it's encouraged.

    And how exactly was Yoda wrong regarding the dark side?

    "Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they."

    Is that false?

    "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

    False?

    "The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

    False?

    You can write it in bold an caps as many times as you want, that won't make it any less false.

    No, the only misinformation he gave was that someone that had fallen couldn't be saved, but that doesn't deny everything that he has said and knows.

    Are you really quoting Vader in that instance, where his state of mind is far from clarity? Well, he also said that Padmé had sent Obi-Wan to kill him. Is this true?

    Of course they sound. Because they are false, right?

    Again, you can repeat that how much you want. Won't make it true.

    No, there is no evidence of such thing, and as I've explained above, the on screen evidence corroborates the events shown in the saga.

    Strawman. Since when the Sith are the dark side?

    Because you say so. But that doesn't make it a fact, specially when that is shown to be not true, as seen in the movies.

    Does that mean they didn't investigate it? No, therefore you are wrong.

    Again, just because they didn't discover everything, doesn't mean they didn't found anything at all. And again, you've been proven wrong.

    During Qui-Gon funeral, Mace explains what they've discovered to Yoda.

    Source?

    Prove it then. How do you prove that they weren't motivated?

    How is that proof that they weren't motivated to discover the truth? Now someones who investigates and doesn't get to the bottom of it is not motivated? Please...

    And he did. Someone needs to watch RotS again.

    So, now you're judging them by events that only you, as the audience, have seen? And as Yoda says "The dark side clouds everything.". Oh wait, is that false as well?

    Yeah, nothing suspicious. Obi-Wan didn't even followed him there, neither did he report all of that...

    Yes, they didn't even care as seen in AotC, right?

    Once again, you take your baseless assumptions as fact. I guess it fits someone who can't come up with actual evidence...

    And look where it took him.

    I see no evidence to corroborate such statement. You are the one with the burden of proof, not me.
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  24. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    Love is attachment.

    "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is".

    Yet in Vader's case, it was the shadow of selflessness, the opposite of greed.

    "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader"

    FALSE. Anakin came back to save his son.

    "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will."

    FALSE. Luke was not consumed and the dark side did not forever dominate his destiny.

    "Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they."

    Natural emotional states, not necessarily the dark side.

    "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

    Completely interchangeable emotional states. Can't suffering lead to fear, and fear lead to hate, and hate lead to anger? Besides, is a prey animal escaping a predator in fear going to the dark side? Can anger not lead to hate? I can be angry I got cut off in traffic without hating the person who did it. Can someone hate without having been angry or afraid first?

    "The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

    Luke feared loss in ESB and did not fall to the dark side.


    It couldn't possibly be any more true. It is the ultimate truth of the saga. You just refuse to see it.
  25. janstett Force Ghost

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    star 3
    Maybe if the Jedi were more compassionate about having a wife and caring whether she lived or died, he wouldn't have turned to the dark side. Mourn them do not, miss them do not, my ass!

    If Luke had listened to Yoda's advice, he would have had to kill his father and probably be killed himself by the Emperor. But Yoda and Obi-Wan were training Luke as an assassin, they never considered any option other than killing Vader.

    What does killing lead to? Fear, hate, anger, hunger, some other interchangeable emotional state?

    In some ways, his mind has never been clearer. The thoughts he has been suppressing for most of his life come to the surface unfettered.

    Not so much false, but uninformed.

    And you can deny it as many times as you want, that won't make it false.

    They know they found a Sith, and that's all. They don't know his name, they don't know his identity, they don't even know if he is the master or the apprentice.

    Leading member of the council (if not THE leader, by the way the other Jedi defer to him) and 900 years of experience.

    Because they didn't expend energy and let it lie for 10 years without resolution. Obviously by Obi-Wan's bewilderment, the events of 10 years ago were no longer a topic of discussion.

    They were either unmotivated or incompetent. You choose.

    What, when Anakin told him Sidious outed himself he slowly walked to a shuttle? Great plan! Confronting Palpatine in private with four armed Jedi, also a great plan. Not collecting evidence or considering how this would appear to the Senate and the public at large, also a great plan. What exactly did they waste 10 years doing, because it wasn't preparing for this contingency.

    The characters were aware of everything that happened. They were just to stupid/blind/arrogant/complacent to put the slightest thought to it.

    He followed them there, yes, but as an idiot who didn't question why... Again, right under their noses, they're too dumb to even ask the question.

    They were mildly interested for 5 seconds (and dropped the whole interest in finding Padme's would be assassin prior to that). Seems they are distracted by shiny objects like cats. Minutes later they are using said clone army without reservation. I guess their curiosity lasted as long as their interest in finding Padme's assailant. If they attacked Syfo Dyas' murder with such alacrity no wonder it went unsolved.

    Evidence right in front of their faces -- none of which enters their brains. Clone army ordered, dead Sifo Dyas, blockade of Naboo, political skulduggery of Palpatine to become chancellor, all 10 years ago. All known by the Jedi. 10 years later, creating a clone army is being debated (and surprise one was already ordered 10 years ago and is ready now), the chief opposing Senator survives an assassination attempt, the template runs to the separatists, all known by the Jedi. Ask a Jedi what 2+2= and you will get blank stares. They really are dumb.

    In the middle of a galaxy in decay with no fear, that made the lives of billions suffer... Anakin may have been the only one who showed an ounce of energy and compassion.

    I see no evidence to corroborate such statement. You are the one with the burden of proof, not me.[/quote]

    And I would cite the fact that they solved nothing and wasted 10 years when their suspicions were raised to do absolutely nothing, and were caught with their pants down in ROTS, and had no plan to gather evidence and present a case for removal of the Chancellor. Going into his chambers at the end of the war with 4 Jedi and their sabers drawn, was that the plan? Case proven.
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 17, 2013
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