Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Feb 13, 2013.
My answer to thread question:
This is the grand daddy of them all.
Palps fight was awesome though
The Lawless duel actually falls within the realm of believability. Bonus.
1) I really think you need to look at Attack of the Clones again. If GL didn't make it clear that the jedi were losing their ability to use the force, look at these lines:
"The Dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is."
"I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished."
"The Dark side has clouded their vision my friend"
Let's also add "Count Dooku was once a jedi. He wouldn't kill anyone. It's not in his character." "He's a political idealist. Not a murderer" Great judge of character they were.
Bottom Line, the jedi can't sense the fact that Palpatine has been under their nose for the past 10+ years! Maul too. Let's not forget his home base was Coruscant prior to TPM. And he managed to kill a few jedi and others on Coruscant during that time. You place a lot of faith in Obi-Wan trying to sense a guy who has kept his presence hidden from the 12 most power Jedi Masters in the galaxy, along with the Chosen One, routinely holding meetings in the same room with the top 2 no less.
And then, as I said in another thread. Not one of them put two and two together. It is almost painful watching Palpatine lay out the bread crumbs and wait until Anakin's light bulb literally turns on "You're the sith lord we've been searching for!" Only because he literally spoon-fed the info to them. Basically again, fully in control. That was best described as "Ok, it's time to move this along. Dooku's dead? Check. Grievous dead? Check. Obi-Wan and Yoda are off world? Checkity check. Time to corrupt the chosen one and kill the jedi."
2) See above. Plagueis went into detail on how he covered his tracks as a Senator. As Chancellor, he surrounded himself with even more people to cover him: Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, Sate Pestage just to name a few.
3) And he's also the one who told Obi-Wan the dark side has clouded their vision in finding the guy.
4) Disagree. The jedi were mostly scattered and could be killed off fairly quick. Biggest downside was Anakin wasn't ready yet and Dooku would have to suffice.
I haven't seen this series... I wonder how the clones managed to get in there when there were a bunch of SBD's outside.
Maybe General Grievous pushed them in there with the Force. Oh, wait...
1) Yoda was mostly saying the Sith were deceiving them. Maul's return proved that's not the case. And clearly they were using the Force all through the war, don't twist his words thx. Yes Sidious and Maul were hiding themselves, but most of the time Sidious didn't use the Force, he only tried during that assassination against Plagueis and when he was killing Plagueis, that could be explained like the light side is too strong on Corusanct so he could cloak himself in some degree. Many missions of Maul also did not take place on Coruscant.
2) But if he was found missing that day and the darkness was sensed by the Jedi, it would totally let the Jedi focus on him.
3) That's not the case clearly, Maul's return totally breaks it. But his words would remind the Jedi if they found Palpatine's trace.
4) No, if he was known as the Sith Lord who was controlling the war, both sides would turn on him. That's why he needed to send Vader to kill those CIS leader in RotS.
What the heck? Now people are saying it doesn't matter if Sidious expose himself in TCW?
They did sense him in EP III, and he was not cloaking himself in Lawless, so that damaged the story and mostly does not fit Sidious' style, that's why I'm against it while the fight is good.
Luke was a much bigger threat to him compare to Maul, do you see Sidious go to beat Luke by himself after he sensed it? No, he let Vader to deal with Luke, then in EP VI he still let Vader fight Luke until Luke beat Vader, that's always his style.
As for GG, beside his fighting ability, why the heck did they steal his kill and gave it to Savage?
Savage Opress can use the Force.
That's how GG deal with the Jedi in LoE.
In the comic he beat Durge+AV.
1) How was I twisting his words? Those are pretty clear quotes. Yoda states he can't see the future because the dark side clouds EVERYTHING! Everything means EVERYTHING. Yoda's pretty big about that type of stuff. Mace states they should inform the senate that their abilities have diminished. Dooku flat out states the Dark side has clouded their vision. You may think that's a lie. But then you mention that he told them point blank about Sidious controlling the Senate. To quote Jack Sparrow "Unless, of course, he knew you wouldn't believe the truth even if he told it to you." Dooku had no reason to lie because the truth was so unbelievable.
At any rate, he's simply very good at concealing himself and always has been. While many missions of Maul's did not take place on Coruscant, a few did. And he killed a Jedi Master and a nearly there Jedi knight. And sure Obi-Wan investigated,but they never tracked him or Sidious. The bottom line is this: Consistently, the Jedi haven't been able to sense Sidious even when he is 10 feet away. They can't figure out he's Sidious until he literally tells them. Yoda can't figure it out. Mace can't. Obi-Wan can't. Anakin can't even while being given all the signs by Palpatine himself. The Jedi could not sense Palpatine = Sidious. Period. That's the way it is. Chalk it up to the will of the Force if you want. But by GL's own edict, that seems to be how it is from Phantom Menace until he reveals himself in Revenge of the Sith.
2) And who would find him missing? Padme? Bail? Not if his secretary or someone else denies them access. He's the Supreme Chancellor. Even the jedi have to go through people to see him. Any one of them can deny access for a dozen reasons: Oh the Chancellor is booked solid. The Chancellor is in a meeting. The Chancellor has taken a personal day. etc etc. Any one of those would shut them down from seeing him until he wanted.
3) They sense Maul. They don't sense Palpatine. See 1. Perhaps Maul, Savage and Dooku just weren't as good at concealing themselves. Does it really matter though? Palpatine is never sensed as Sidious by the jedi. Maul senses him because he's familiar with the presence and because Sidious makes himself known to Maul. Perhaps by that same token, Obi-Wan senses Maul because he knows Maul. Same way Vader sense Obi-Wan. It seems they are more attuned to the presences they know. But again,it doesn't matter. No jedi senses Palpatine = Sidious. Honestly, didn't seem like Savage sensed him either. It was only Maul that got it. Let's chalk it up to the Master/Apprentice bond if you like. It's not like that doesn't exist. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had it. Surely it makes sense for the apprentice to sense his master when no one else seems to?
4) How so? Nute and the Separatists were DIRECTLY communicating with Darth Sidious on Mustafar. They knew way back on Geonosis that Dooku had a master. Separtists were under his command. As to the Clones, they are programmed to follow orders. If the Supreme Chancellor orders you to execute Order 66, you do so. Do you recall Commander Cody saying: "Hey wait a minute, why are you dressed in black and wearing a hood? And what's with the face?" No, he said "It will be done my Lord." And despite working with Obi-Wan for nearly 3 years and knowing exactly what he was doing on Utapau, Cody opened fire without batting an eye. Same for Bly and the rest. As to the CIS leaders, he sent Vader to kill them to tie up loose ends. Their usefulness had ended. However, if he were to reveal himself early, he'd still have Dooku and Grievous as his enforcers anyway.
Then how did he sense Maul? Maul is not included in "EVERYTHING"? Such a hilarious debate.
Yes it could be a lie, but if Sidious and Palpatine did make connection, then his words would let the Jedi be alert of it and reconsider about it.
Yes, and possibly due to Coruscant's strong light side since so many Jedi are here, same as Yoda did in OT.
These "10 feet away" are all based on one thing, Sidious was not using his power, when he used it in EP III even Anakin was able to sense it, Obi Wan did, too.
His secretary can deny them, but it does not mean they could not secretly investigate the situation. What meeting? My SWTOR agent was forbid to see any file but I still sneak in, cut off the power and checked. They are politicians, not morons, if they suspect you they will investigate you, that's why we don't see Sidious running around and do the jobs by himself but use Maul to do it. Even himself said it clear when he was killing Plagueis about Maul is used to do what he could not risk himself to do.
Because he rarely show his power.
I don't want to paste it again but seriously.
That's the description of him when he showed before Maul brothers, and it was before the fight began, are you still saying he was concealing himself? In the book it's also made clear he was not even wearing his Force Mask, showed pale skin and yellow eyes.
The CIS leaders(except Dooku) only knew him as Sidious, if they knew Sidious is Palpatine then he would know Palpatine was playing them all along, same as the senate if they knew Palpatine was the Sith Lord behind CIS, both the CIS and the Senate would turn on him, that's going to be a huge problem and pretty much means the end of his grand plan.
Oh, "scarred by the lightning"... Most Recent Source would like a word with you.
I'm not saying Sidious would expose his identity for sure, but there is risk. It's not so emergent like that assassination, nor is the foe too powerful and intelligent like Plagueis. His style is usually to manipulate others to do the work. Sure have him show up and fight is exciting to watch but it would be much better for the plot if he stay behind the stage and manipulate people who hate Maul to deal with Maul.
I though the duel with Savage and Maul was epic. Total curb stomp. For Sidious it was all a show of power. He was beating Maul into submission since he had ideas for him.
In the context of the episode, yes it was the best. Given that a civil war was going down, here we have another epic battle with serious repercussions at stake. It all flowed together really well and was incredibly cinematic.
Not to mention that Sidious growl, that rocked my socks off. He was so....raw. It was the best we've seen him at in the entire series, imo.
Wait, some super crazy horned humanoids using laser swords to duel an old man -- who can summon lightning from his fingers -- is believable?
I like how savage can knock dooku to the ground with one hit from his lightsaber yet Sidious can make him all off balance with 1 hit... Sidious must be hitting the gym or something...
You should see my neighbourhood.
No way is that the same Grievous this guy wins
In context, yes.
But it should be a certainty that a Sith Lord can defeat a padawan...and Dooku looked like he really exerted himself defeating Anakin. Didn't seem super dominant to me, yes he was on another level but not as untouchable as Sidious looked