Discussions Is the Rule of Two a pollution of the Sith beliefs?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by DarthMarik, Mar 22, 2014.

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  1. DarthMarik Jedi Padawan

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    Sep 23, 2012
    Darth Bane created the rule of two because he was opposed to the Sith Empire's views but ultimately because of the rule of two the Sith lost I mean look at it this way Sidious put too much faith in himself and Vader's loyalty and ultimately because he had only one apprentice there were no more Sith. I guess what I'm saying is that I feel The Sith Empire of the Old Republic was superior but only because of a quote by Luke Skywalker in the Book of the Sith.

    Bane was wrong. The force is fire. When the Emperor held power, the Jedi were nearly extinguished and the galaxy suffered. I have worked to restore the Jedi Order, and we grow stronger as we pass the flame our light spreads.- Luke

    What I'm trying to say is that since the Sith are limited by two that makes them more vulnerable. Granted Sidious was very conceded and narcissistic(something the Bane warns against in the Book) so perhaps Sidious was more to blame and not the Rule of Two.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The thing is that the nature of the Sith Order is that they become too greedy and self absorbed in wanting to be the true Dark Lord Of The Sith. This was shown in "Golden Age Of The Sith", when Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow fought each against each other for control of the Sith Empire, following the death of Marka Ragnos. This schism within the Sith Order lead to a war against the Jedi and allies of the Republic, ending with Sadow going into exile and the Sith Order eventually becoming almost completely extinct. Years later, Exar Kun wanted to kill the other would be Sith, because they were heretics as he saw it. Likewise, Ulic Qel-Droma was manipulated into killing Satal Keto by his cousin Aliema who wanted to have more power than she did prior to then. Later, Aliema left Ulic to the Republic and the Jedi, in an act of betrayal born out of self preservation. The two Sith Lords later killed her for her actions. When Bane went back to the Rule Of Two, he did it because he saw what a mess the Sith were under Skere Kaan, with all their infighting and back stabbing. If the Sith were to survive, they didn't need to fight on two fronts. Hence Bane's actions which lead to the destruction of the Sith on Ruusan and the beginning of the covert Sith Order.

    "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

    --George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.


    The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.


    --Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60

    Which is what takes us to the films itself. Bane didn't know what it was that going to happen in the years after his death. He didn't know that Sidious would kill Plagueis in his sleep, so that he could better exploit Maul as his Apprentice. Nor could he foresee that both Sith Lords would start to covet Luke, because of the damage Obi-wan did to Vader on Mustafar. Nor could he foresee that Vader would turn back and save his son, effectively ending his Sith Order. They weren't exactly wrong, because had they continued as they were, the Sith would have been wiped out a thousand years earlier. The downside being that Krayt tried the One Sith and it ultimately didn't work out, as betrayal once again reared its ugly head.

    And yes, I know some of that is EU, but it's used to make a point.
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  3. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    The Rule lasted 1,000 years, so I think it was simply a better way for the power-hungry Sith to control themselves.
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  4. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    The Sith don't believe in strength in numbers. Teamwork is the antithesis of their narcissistic belief in the superiority of the self. Of course that was their downfall; they're the bad guys and they lost. But that doesn't mean the Rule of Two was a "pollution" of their beliefs. It was the ultimate expression of them. However, their beliefs were wrong, and we're supposed to see that they were wrong.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Mar 22, 2014
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  5. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    On the contrary, I would argue that the Rule of Two actually worked. Sidious was able to engineer the complete takeover of the galaxy and almost-complete eradication of the Jedi. Going by the EU, the Sith never achieved that level of success at any other point. It was the best way of channeling their inherently self-destructive nature into achieving success.
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  6. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    I kind of wish the movies explained why the Rule of Two was implemented.
  7. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    From the films I always had the impression it was a Jedi misperception of the Sith not a fact of Sith philosophy.
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  8. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I quite like the idea of the RoT. I think it fits well with the Sith ideology. Each Sith is basically about having as much power for the Sith as possible, so the idea of teamwork is abhorrent to them. The Sith Lord and his or her apprentice are only a team in the sense that they are able to use the other to advance the Sith Order. The master wants to apprentice to become powerful enough to overthrow him or her or perish doing it. The apprentice wants to learn enough from the master in order that they will one day overthrow him or her. The idea of a whole bunch of average Sith ganging up and overthrowing the genuine Lord is completely against their ideology. It works for me.
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  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    But it was ultimately what destroyed them because they both tried to turn Luke, so that they could kill the other. And in the end, Vader turns back from the dark side to save his son, which then lead to both of their deaths. Tragic irony, or poetic justice.

    It did. AOTC has Dooku trying to turn Obi-wan to destroy Palpatine. ROTS has Palpatine order Anakin to kill Dooku and Dooku giving him an, "Oh crap..." look. Palpatine talks about Plagueis being killed in his sleep by his Apprentice. Anakin talks about killing Palpatine and ruling the Republic instead. TESB has Vader tell Luke that they can rule together by killing Palpatine. In ROTJ, Palpatine orders Luke to kill Vader.

    Considering that we only see two Sith together at a time and throughout we see that they're willing to have someone else kill the other, kinda clues you in that it was a misconception.
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  10. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I think it works fine with what we see in the films. The Sith are always in pairs and often they are looking to overthrow or replace each other. I'm not sure it's ever explained WHY this is though.
  11. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    That's fine, guys. You're welcome to see it however you want. I still believe it's a Jedi distortion not a Sith fact.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Mar 24, 2014
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    So where's the other Sith Lords? "The Clone Wars" even have the Sith admitting that there can only be two.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Mar 24, 2014
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  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It's laid down in some detail in the TPM novelisation - I think based on info Lucas gave that author - the same stuff as would later appear in those interviews:

    The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

    He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

    Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

    In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

    All but one.

    Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

    The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way- old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

    When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

    The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

    A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.
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  14. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I don't pay attention to any of that. EU doesn't really matter to me.
  15. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I'm not much of an EU man either, but I liked the way this was explained in the Darth Bane novels.
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  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    When Yoda says "Always two there are" what makes you think he doesn't know what he's talking about?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 24, 2014
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  17. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Yoda is Basil Exposition at that point, so I guess we can assume that he does.
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  18. Obi-yoda Jedi Knight

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    *ahem* KOTOR II. Basically the same number of Jedi left as after the Purge. Anyways, the Rule of Two definitely did work, because the Sith never self-exterminated.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Obi-yoda, Mar 24, 2014
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    No takeover of the galaxy though - Nihilus wasn't really interested in ruling anything, from what I've heard.
  20. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I stand by my stance. I don't think Yoda does know what he's talking about.
    Last edited by Cushing's Admirer, Mar 24, 2014
  21. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Fair enough too. Yoda's been known to get things wrong.
  22. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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  23. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    And the reason the rest didn't? Infighting.
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  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Why?
  25. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Although I think the intention is that Yoda is conveying accurate information to the audience, I can see Cushy's point. The Sith have supposedly been extinct for a thousand years or whatever, so how would anyone, including Yoda, know exactly how they carried out their operations after the point of extinction?
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