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Discussions Is the Rule of Two a pollution of the Sith beliefs?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by DarthMarik, Mar 22, 2014.

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  1. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Some discussions in other threads got me thinking about this again...

    On the one hand, the Sith seem to be completely selfish and single minded. If someone can't be used to advantage, they're destroyed. On the other hand, the Rule of Two is a fairly absolute study in self sacrifice. Although it seems to be less express in the films than in the EU, the idea that a Sith Lord is preparing his or her apprentice to eventually exceed his or her power and replace him, hence advancing the strength of he order, seems to be the antithesis of selfishness. Interesting...
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    Jedi Merkurian says it best:

  3. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    I thought something like this...

    There can only be two, a Master and an Apprentice. But, there can be candidates, but they cannot get involved in the battle between the Master and Apprentice. This allows for a truly strong apprentice to beat the master, not by virtue of the apprentice (or master), having assistance. If the master is selfish and has no intention of dying, or genuinely believes that the Order will not benefit him dying, the end result is the same - the apprentice has to be stronger, faster, more cunning, regardless of how loyal the master is to the Rule. In-fact, candidates is in keeping with the Rule as the master has a duty to find a better apprentice, and the student has a duty to ensure he has an apprentice when he ascends. And then the candidate system acts as a failsafe if the master and apprentice die at the same time - the candidates fight it out for who becomes the Dark Lord and propagates the Rule of two... So there are always at least three Sith, potentially more - the Sith are preserved without dozens of Sith turning on the master and diluting the Sith Order by weaker apprentices killing the master by numbers alone. Only the strongest of each generation of Sith survive but the conflict is limited and codified.

    I like the addition of the candidate system by later continuity which codifies what we saw in RotJ, and thereafter.

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  4. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 17, 2011
    Naah. I've said it before, and i'll say it again, the Rule of Two's the most well thought out Sith doctrine/order/empire we ever saw. I'm not say it's perfect, as many often enjoy pointing out it's flaws, but ignore the flaws of the other groups. No Order will ever be perfect. It's possible that a Sith could turn/turn back to the Light Side, as we've seen. It's possible an Apprentice wouldn't agree with the teachings of the Master, and leave on his own, as we've seen. Yet these are flaws that exist in other Sith groups, and really any Dark Side organization, as well. The main problem that people often point out about it is it's lack of manpower when compared to the Jedi Order's tens of thousands of Knights. This is true. Two Sith alone could never take on that many Jedi head on and hope to win. However, that's exactly why such a route was completely avoided in the films and EU. When Bane made his Order he did it specifically knowing that he wouldn't go down that path, because it had failed time and again, either due to the Jedi merely being superior in that conflict, or because one Sith Lord inevitably betrayed another, allowing the united Jedi army to take advantage of the internal weakness and strife, claiming victory in the end.

    By limiting the Order to two, Bane was attempting to either completely do away with, or limit the problems the Sith had faced for centuries. One powerful Master could be taken down by many weaker Apprentices banding together. The Apprentices would then have to set about killing each other, because there can be no true equality among the Sith, so one will always seek to rise to the top above the others. However, the resulting winner of the conflict will not be as strong as the original Master who was slain, weakening the Sith Order as a whole. And in the end, the true enemy of the Sith, the Jedi Order, remains relatively unaffected. In an interesting way, I see the Rule of Two as the Sith attempting to use their own weaknesses and make them into strengths, and serves as the best counter to the Jedi. Because the Jedi, do to their values, their selflessness, their need to help people, could never operate under the Rule of Two. Just the basics of Two Jedi in a galaxy full of people makes it impossible for it to work, because they need to be in the spotlight, directly handling things themselves. The Sith however don't. They don't care about others, yet there are numerous bounty hunters, dark jedi, politicians, and others who they can either corrupt or bribe to work for them, to accomplish their goals.

    That's why the Rule of Two worked in the end. The Sith involved feed off and manipulate the darkness already present in the galaxy for their own purposes, collectively placing the entirety of Sith knowledge within one Master, and one Apprentice, instead of spreading it out among thousands. Striking from the shadows and using secrecy to take down a public group is the best way to go in my opinion, and why the most successful groups (Order of the Sith Lords, Krayt's One Sith, Vitiate's Sith Empire) have used those traits to some extent. The Order of the Sith Lords didn't lose because of the Rule of Two. That's how they won, becoming the first Sith Empire to conquer the galaxy.
  5. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 3, 2014
    That's why you will wait forever for an answer you don't really want to know.
  6. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

    Aug 17, 2014
    As opposed to infighting and resorting to alliance of weaker sith to overpower stronger sith, the rule of two ensures that the apprentice must be stronger than the master, or smart enough to outlive the master, in order to replace them. It has its flaws, but I'd bet that even if the original line of sith was destroyed, the order would eventually be reborn. There's always that one jedi that seeks darker teachings.... Exar Kun, Darth Ruin, others I can't remember off the bat. They sought out sith teachings as jedi and became sith themselves. The sith probably created a holocron whenever a master was replaced, to keep the knowledge intact even if the practitioners die. A repeating equation seems to be jedi+ sith holocrons= sith lord.
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  7. DarthIshyZ

    DarthIshyZ Chosen One star 6

    Jan 8, 2005
    I think this one paragraph is the centerpoint of it all. It's all about reaching higher. The absolute second you stop reaching higher, you're done.

    I agree with a previous poster that Vader should've been done away with long ago. Palpy and Darth Stumps plateaued in their evolution. Honestly, I think that when Palpatine saw Anakin writhing on Mustafar, he should've shaken his head, kicked Anakin into the lava and walked away. Biggest problem is that Palpatine had already overplayed his hand. He needed a force-sensitive leiutenant. At the time, that little piece of beef jerky lying there was the only thing he had available. A year or so goes by and they've found a few Inquisitorius members who are force sensitive. Choose one, dispatch Vader and continue the growth of the Sith. There absolutely never should have been a "my friend" passed between them as there was on DSII. Always two: master and apprentice. One to wield power, the other to crave it.
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  8. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 25, 2000

    I think Sidious was alway looking to "trade up." I'm of the opinion that even a "crispy" Vader was still far better -in terms of cunning, ambition, aptitude, and sheer power- than any other potential Sith candidate, until Luke came along.
    DarthIshyZ likes this.
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Sep 2, 2012
    From the YA ROTS novelization (Patricia C. Wrede):

    As the Imperial shuttle closed its wings and settled on the topmost landing platform, Darth Sidious saw a small starship fleeing from Mustafar. But he could not order the shuttle into pursuitthe uneasy urgency was stronger than ever, and it was tied to the planet, not the ship.
    The clone troopers disembarked first, fanning out through the quiet building to make sure nothing would endanger their Emperor. They found only bodies. Then, as Darth Sidious inspected the control room, one of the troopers came in through an exterior door.
    "There's something out here," he reported.
    That's it. As quickly as he could, Darth Sidious followed the troopers outside, onto the black sand banks of the lava river. No, it can't be!
    But it was. His promising new apprentice, who was to be the greatest Sith who'd ever lived—maimed and burned, perhaps dead. Darth Sidious ground his teeth in frustrated anger. Part of him wanted to turn on his heel and leave what was left of Darth Vader to burn to ashes in the rising lava. Even if he was alive, even if he could be saved, Vader would be crippled.
    And not just with his mechanical limbs. The Force—dark side as well as light—was generated by living beings, and it took living flesh to manipulate it. Darth Vader would never be able to cast blue Force lightning; that required living hands, not metal ones. And with so much of his body replaced by machinery, he would never come close to the potential he'd had.
    It was a great pity, Darth Sidious thought, controlling his anger, but perhaps not irreparable. Even diminished, Darth Vader would still be very strong, and there were no Jedi left to challenge him. Darth Sidious had seen to that himself. So he kept walking until he could bend over the body. And to his surprise, his apprentice was still alive.
    Relief swept his doubts away. "Get a medical capsule immediately," Darth Sidious commanded, and clones ran off to do his bidding. Leaning down, he placed a hand on Darth Vader's forehead, using the dark side to keep him alive.
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  10. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 17, 2011
    Yeah, lets not forget, Darth Vader in the Armor=80% of Darth Sidious (At the time of ROTJ anyways) He still managed to accomplish and survive quite a bit, that I don't think any Inquisitor or Hand would have. But I do agree, based on Galen and Luke, that Sidious was always on the lookout, at least after the first few years, once it became clear Vader would never get over his mental or emotional issues, and therefore would never be able to regain the power/potential he'd lost.
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