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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Is the Saga a Tragedy?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Vortigern99, Oct 31, 2007.

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  1. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Is the Saga a Tragedy?

    This has been discussed in other threads (Secret History of Star Wars, No Children in the OT), but I think it's important enough to have its own space in which to stretch out.

    The Oxford Dictionary defines tragedy as (3a) a play in verse or prose dealing with tragic events and with an unhappy ending, esp. concerning the downfall of the protagonist.

    The same dictionary defines tragic as sad; calamitous; greatly distressing.

    NOTE: I seleceted the (3a) definition of 'tragic' because it is the only one concerned with discussing literary or artistic tragedy, as opposed to real-life or actual tragedy. This is a series of fictive films, after all, rather than a documentary or biopic! For our purposes, a 'play in prose' is sufficiently equivalent to a screenplay.

    Based on these definitions, I submit that the Saga is not a tragedy at all. Whereas the protagonist of the first three films becomes a villain, 'killing' his former self and becoming an abomination and a murderer, the PT could be said to be a 'tragedy'. The ending is unhappy and it concerns the downfall of the hero: definition fulfilled.

    However, since that same character goes on to be 'redeemed' by his son, and through an act of self-sacrifice (slaying the Emperor) destroys himself and so saves the Galaxy from tyranny and oppression, the ending of the OT and of the Saga as a whole is happy, and the original protagonist is restored to goodness and light.

    Thus there is ultimately no tragedy. This assertion is distinct from the question of origins, which is a topic for the Secret History of Star Wars thread. I do not say that Lucas is lying per se when he refers to his Trqgedy of Darth Vader, I simply say that he is mistaken about applying that specific literary term to a story that is overtly not tragic.
     
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Of course it's a tragedy. Vader does not regain his humanity in the end and dies.
     
  3. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    No, it's not a tragedy. In the current definition of the Saga, the tragic hero realizes what he's become and stops the madness by laying down his life to destroy the Empire. It ends on an upnote. Anakin finally becomes 'the Jedi he should be' and gains immortality by bringing peace and freedom to the galaxy.
     
  4. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    strange that you say that. i always held it as precisely his humanity that he regains... :confused:
     
  5. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Go-Mer, what do you mean 'Vader doesn't regain his humanity'? Surely that's the whole thrust of the climax of ROTJ! Compassion for his son returns him to his former self and he sacrifices himself for the greater good.

    How is it that Anakin becomes a Force-spirit if his humanity remains subsumed by his monstrosity? I don't think you've thought this through as extensively as you believe.
     
  6. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    anyway, now everyone go read their aristotle or the opening post of this thread http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/20331347/p1/?153 for a quickie :D
     
  7. BaronLandoCalrissian

    BaronLandoCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 14, 2006
    A tragedy? Hell to the no!

    http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00186/Whitney_Houston__186227m.jpg
     
  8. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    I'm posting the entirety of RebelScum77's first post of the above-linked thread [thanks, darth-frared] regarding the reading of Anakin as a tragic hero, because it is germane to this discussion. The Shakespearean model, especially, cleaves closely to Anakin's arc... except for one crucial distinction. Can anyone determine what that is? I'll post my own thoughts on the matter tomorrow night....


     
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Anakin does realize his mistake and makes one last selfless act to restore order to the galaxy, but he still dies. He does not regain his humanity. To be human is to be alive.
     
  10. MatthewZ

    MatthewZ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 21, 2003

    I think after Oedipus' tragic downfall he makes a selfless gesture to attempt to put right what had been wrong. It involves his offspring, similar to Anakin.
     
  11. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    that's a very limited view, though, innit? i don't think either of us means to say he doesn't die, merely that before he dies, he is being loved again i.e. his human side is being acknowledged. and then he dies.

    and for that matter i don't think the films ever says he's no longer human, it just says that people find it easy to demonize him.
     
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    He loses his humanity in Episode III, and manages to make one last selfless act to demonstrate he realizes his mistake, but it doesn't win him his humanity back. He has that last moment with his son, and he feels and gives love, but that doesn't mean everything is all fine and dandy for him. He still dies at that point, which is the ultimate loss of humanity.
     
  13. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    you mean other than the appearing as a Force ghost with Yoda and Obi-Wan part, right? It clearly shows that Anakin Skywalker was redeemed, and fully restored as a Jedi. I would say that counts as winning his humanity back. Jedi dying is not a sad thing, they are joining the Force. Miss them, do not. Mourn them do not. They wouldn't consider becoming one with the Force as a loss so much as a transition to another plane of existence.
     
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    He was not fully restored as a human being, his spirit lived on in the afterlife.

    His loss of humanity was permanent.
     
  15. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    The saga is two stories; one a tragedy, one a romance. They combine to form an epic tale that is a combination of both, rather than exclusively one or the other.
     
  16. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Anakin/redeemed Vader says to Luke: "Tell you sister... you were right about me." Luke was right in that there was still good in Anakin.

    That goodness is Anakin's humanity. To feel and give love is to reveal -- to experience,to be immersed in -- one's humanity.

    Death is not the 'loss of humanity'. If that were so then all deceased persons would be inhuman. Death is simply the loss of life; one's humanity is not at stake.

    That Anakin appears as a Force-spirit clearly shows he has re-joined the Light and regained his place as a compassionate being. Sith, and other inhuman monsters, do not, so far as we are shown in the films, become Force-spirits.

    If the definition of a tragedy includes the downfall of the protagonist, then only the PT segment of the Saga can be defined as a tragedy -- not the OT, and not the Saga as a whole.
     
  17. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    But what is the loss of his humanity compared to the restoration of his soul? The tale of Anakin Skywalker is most certainly a tragedy during the PT, but, his personal story ends on a positive note, not a negative one. Anakin Skywalker dies a Jedi, not a Sith. He dies at peace, knowing that his son will be the Jedi he couldn'
    t be. Anakin has his happy ending, so the entire saga cannot be viewed as a tragedy. The PT certainly can, but, looking at the entire saga as a whole, I don't think you can justify it.
     
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    I disagree. I think that having your soul in the afterlife is an entirely separate thing from his humanity, hence the whole saga is a tragedy.

    Anakin loses his humanity and while he understands his mistake in the end, he can't undo what he did. He can't go back to being a human being, he can't bring Padme back, while his kids think he's an ok guy after all, he still dies.

    To me all dead people are inhuman even if you believe their spirit lives on, they are no longer "human".
     
  19. darth_frared

    darth_frared Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 24, 2005
    it's just that you seem to apply a different definition to what this 'humanity' thing is than most of us...

    how does one lose it and how does it not come back? is anakin merely clumsy?
    yes, surely. it's a bit naive, though, innit, to deny a person humanity simply because they have done something in the past. they all have pasts and they weren't around the clock virtuous. so, why does anakin not get a pass there?
    surely it's occurred to you that you are mixing two different concepts here? that of ceasing to be of the material realm and that of ceasing to love yourself and others?
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    If his humanity had truly been gone he would have coldly watched the Emperor kill his son rather than sacrificing himself to save him.

    On a higher level in terms of what actually makes us 'human' if they lived on whether it be in another realm such as heaven or as a ghost ala Ben, Yoda, and Anakin they're still human where it really counts. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." etc.
     
  21. morpha2

    morpha2 Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2005
    You guys are totally falling for Go-Mer's bluff. Endlessly parsing a term ("humanity") that he introduced to the topic that is only tangentially relevant to the discusson at hand. No one needs to determine where or when Anakin lost and/or regained his humanity to decide if the saga is a tragedy or not. The fireworks and Ewok party at the end should be sufficient enough to answer that question. It's not like the ending of Hamlet or something. Luke triumphs, Anakin is restored to his former place beside his teachers, the Emperor dies, etc.
     
  22. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 10, 2001
    If you take the three Prequels in isolation, then clearly ther story arc of the Prequel Trilogy is 100% tragedy. The OT is not a tragedy though, and taking the Prequels and the Classic's as one Saga, asd Lucas would like us to, then I can't see how Star Wars can be classed as a tragic story, because it ends with redepemption and freedom, neither of which I would regard as a tragedy.

    However, I suppose Palpatine ends up a tragic figure? ;)
     
  23. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Nah. Don't you need to have a fallen hero or something for it to be a tragedy? Palpatine was evil from the start, so he is just the ultimate villain of the story. He was never good, and then got corrupted, he started out bad, died bad.
     
  24. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    Is the saga a comedy?
     
  25. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    No, but the first half DOES have some laughably bad dialogue, acting, and plot developments...
     
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