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Senate Is there a conflict between Religion and Science?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ghost, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    There is a conflict when you try to look at religion through a scientific lens, but that would be like refereeing a soccer game according to basketball rules.
     
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  2. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    You should look at everything through a scientific lens.
     
  3. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    And of course, if you look at science through a religious lens, then it's no longer science.
     
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  4. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    You should look at everything through the appropriate lens.

    The scientific lens will only you garner you scientific data, but scientific data is not always the goal.
     
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  5. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Then make it your goal.
     
  6. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2007
    It is one of my goals but, because I am a human being, I have other goals as well.
     
  7. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    can you name some? for the sake of the discussion?
     
  8. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Ah. How we missed you. Not really. The scientific lens is the right out of the choice between right and wrong as backed by all the reviewed history of data. Looking purely through the religious lens is the "pay no attention to that man behind the mirror" field of view.
     
  9. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I seem to remember someone in the senate of the old boards saying that evolution and science was wrong because it's of no use to anyone but religions' views of morality were of use to they were right. Was that you, wannasee?
     
  10. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Some goals that viewing religion with a scientific lens cannot help me achieve:

    1. Pursue a religious way of life that i consider meaningful (because science invalidates it)
    2. preserve the culture of ancestors (because science makes it seem quaint)
    3. be a part of a community that shares my values. (because science would discourage me from going to a place to worship an imaginary being)

    I am here defining the relationship between science and religion in the very narrow, and typically atheist, fashion. That is, "if it's not true, then it's not true, and it's garbage."

    Of course there are wider ways to define science where it would not be in conflict with religion. For example, if it is found scientifically that people who attend religious services are healthier than people who don't, that would be an instance where science would not be at odds with religion.

    I would never have said that evolution and science are wrong.
     
  11. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    A reminder to keep this to discussion and a presenting of ideas, simply posting pictures doesn't further that discussion. - Lowbacca_1977
     
  12. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Okay, you don't need to disregard your ancestors' culture because of science. What you need to understand about your ancestors' culture is that the stories they told were their way of making sense of the world they lived in, pre-science.

    Science doesn't discourage people from going to church. Many religious people have no problem with science and evolution and do not allow those facts to interfere with their beliefs. This also applies to your first reason.
     
  13. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    I don't think science and religion have to be mutually exclusive at all. I went to a clergy appreciation dinner on Saturday put on by the Knight of Columbus. The speaker was a hematologist who has become involved with confirming, or in some cases, debunking, miraculous healings as part of the Church's canonization process. She's published a book on the subject and it made for an absolutely fascinating talk. The process of canonization is RIGOROUSLY scientific and has very a very clear set of criteria for what does and does not constitute a miracle.
     
  14. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Warton, a scientist, says she was horrified when she opened a homeschool science textbook and found a picture of Adam and Eve putting a saddle on a dinosaur.

    The article is interesting in that the primary target of this nonsense is starting to resist it. People affiliated with Answers In Genesis and The Discovery Institute have been put on the stand as witnesses in school curriculum cases and have had to admit they have no real research of any sort for Creationism/Intelligent Design. Why? Because they have not research of any kind and saying so will rbing the next step of having to produce some.
     
  15. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    The scientist in the article is not in the target audience of Christian home-school textbooks.
     
  16. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    That doesn't make Adam and Eve on a dinosaur a fact that should be taught to chidlren in place of a real education.
     
  17. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 27, 2012

    Probably because it's about as far from fact as possible.
     
  18. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2007
    There are many kinds of education : moral, cultural, spiritual, practical, scientific, etc.

    They are all "real" forms of education and useful in their proper fields.
     
  19. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    That does not make them equal no worthy of official education.
     
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  20. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2007
    Anything useful is worth being taught.
     
  21. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Useful? Humans and dinosaurs did not exist at the same time millions of years ago, thousands of years ago or any other years ago other than possibly modern birds. Wanna teach Adam and Eve riding dinos? then it must be taught that such a thing is pure fiction and has nothing to do with any form of science at all anywhere.
     
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  22. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    So it is your opinion that parents cannot teach their religion to their children, even in their own homes.

    ok...
     
  23. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    The issue is that home schooling exists - ostensibly - as an alternative to public education, but textbooks such as the one being discussed are conveying information contrary to the sort of curriculum necessary to keep the student up to pace with the standards colleges would expect of their incoming students.

    Certainly religion can be taught in the home, but it should not be incorporated into a text that purports to provide a legitimate biology, history, etc. curriculum. Although you're free to continually misconstrue VLM's point for the purposes of attacking a non-existent strawman.
     
  24. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    I was confused by this long sentence. This is what i got out of it:

    "This textbook presents information that is contrary to the standard curriculum. Kids are falling hopelessly behind and will fail all their classes in college."

    Is that it? Probably not.

    If parents want to use texts that start with men on dinosaurs and that then go on to teach the "normal" curriculum, I don't see what the big deal is.

    Will you tell me what strawman argument you think it is that I am attacking, or what point of VLM's you think I'm misconstruing?

    Edit: I went to high school (a good one, if that matters) and took biology, 2 years of chemistry, and 2 years of physics. I did fine in all of them, and if I had believed that man walked with dinosaurs, I still would have done fine.
     
  25. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Except, you're acting as though the point of a science class is simply to be able to pass it, and not that a huge part of science is understanding critical thought and scientific methodology. Already, the public schools fail on this a huge amount, but this represents an absolute and total disregard for that and is actively working against it. It sets these people up to be scammed and manipulated. By anti-vaxxers, by faith healers, by homeopathy, etc just to look at medical applications of it. Understanding how this works is important, and the contortions it takes to teach creationism and the like means you have to teach them to disregard that methodology.