Saga Is there a reason why force ghosts can't just stay around all the time?

Qui-gon is ever present, but unable to manifest visually. Nor is he heard for a long time due to the necessity of needing to learn to communicate. Once Yoda stumbles across it, he can hear him and with time he can hear him fully. Qui-gon then teaches Yoda and Obi-wan how to retain their identities and in turn, we know that Obi-wan teaches Luke to trust in the Force. He later instructs him to go to Dagobah and tries to warn him of the dangers in leaving before he's ready. Finally, he passes on the last bit of knowledge that he needs which is what happened to his father. But as noted, Lucas couldn't have them involved in the confrontation with the Sith. Which is why Obi-wan does not go to Cloud City to help Luke and neither he, nor Yoda interfere on the Death Star II. Originally, Lucas did have them interfere, but it took away from the danger of Luke turning. Once Lucas decided to take them out of the confrontation, the onus is now on Luke to succeed or fail on his own.

 

I think the family connection also plays a major role in Vader sensing that Luke is strong with the Force. Had it just been another random Force sensitive I doubt Vader, or anyone, would be able to sense it so well. He might be able to sense the Force nearby, but not as well as he did. It was the father/son bond, in addition to the Force being present in Luke, that Vader tapped into.

Granted, you could say when ANH was written, Vader wasn't yet Luke's father. And that scene would have still been there, so how do you explain it then? But I personally never had the experience of not knowing Vader was Luke's father. I'm a 90s kid, so growing up watching SW during that time it was already a given that Vader was Luke's father. I don't ever recall not knowing that and then being surprised at the reveal. And whenever I watched ANH I always interpreted that scene as Vader sensing his son as well as the Force in his son.

That said, what are we going on? Because obviously Vader as Luke's father is the driving plot of point of the entire OT, regardless of what was originally intended before it was all fleshed out. So do we answer this question of what he felt in Luke based on how it was initially written or how we can look back on it once it became canon that Vader is Luke's father?

 

Yes, there is. New episodes of Bill Nye Saves the World. Gotta watch. No time for jedi stuff.


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Familiar bonds aren't that important as Obi-wan and Anakin/Vader could sense each other pretty well when they were together. As Vader says to Tarkin, Obi-wan's presence is a particular tremor in the Force that he last felt on Mustafar. He would know it anywhere. Vader doesn't sense Luke until he goes to destroy the Death Star. So I would say that he doesn't sense Luke because they are family, but because of a tremor in the Force that is strong.

 

The entire time after the fall of the Republic is a time of crisis. If I was a force ghost, I'd do something like help the leftover Jedi start a new order. Force sensitive kids are still being born all the time. I don't need to physically interact with anything, I can just use a Jedi that can see and hear me (say Kanan) to show them what I tell him.

 

Yeah but how can any random Jedi help bring balance to the Force which means destroying the Sith? When Ezra finally found Obi-Wan, he was just sent back home without any explanation of the reason why Obi-Wan was on Tatooine because destroying the Sith is not Ezra or Kanan's destiny. The new hopes were Anakin's children because they were the only ones who could reach Anakin and bring him back from the darkside. We don't know when was the last time someone learned to become a Force ghost, so far we only saw them in relation to Anakin fulfilling the prophecy of the chosen one and we know that only a select few are chosen to have the training to become a Force ghost so they wouldn't abuse of this power.

 

I guess force ghosts can influence the will of the force, and therefore change fate. That's why Ben told Vader that if he strikes him down he will become more powerful than he could imagine.

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So being part of the force, in the netherworld, means that they are not fettered spatially or temporally, therefore omnipresent and, to all intents and purposes, omniscient.

Except when they interact with the living, where their identity is consistent with their physical form.

The question now is, what's the point of retaining your consciousness and identity within a netherworld of no fixed time and space? What other consciousnesses are there that you could possibly relate to? For Qui Gon it seems like he had no-one until he found a way to communicate with Yoda, and the latterly, Obi Wan.

Consciousness and identity would seem to have little purpose for one merged with the force except for communicating with the living.

In this sense it means that instead of a force-sensitive feeling the force and its guidance, there is also a way for the force to allow the living to receive verbal guidance through the interface of a familiar identity.

So that would mean that, except when they are interacting with the living, the inherent force energy of Qui Gon, Yoda and Ben goes on the same journey as any person who's physical life has ended.

I'm not dissing it. I'm fine with it being a storytelling convenience. I'm satisfied with the answer that nobody really knows and perhaps isn't meant to know - i.e. a great mystery.

I don't agree that it is intuitively or logically obvious that other than talking to Luke, force ghosts are "just being" in no particular time or place. That's just vaguely mystical fluff pressed into service as insight. The fact is that they just aren't in the script or the plot at that particular time.

Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it. The Force is simply strong with Luke and Vader senses that.[/quote]

The intervention of Obi Wan might just be coincidental to Vader acknowledging the force strength of the pilot who is expertly eluding his targeting attempts. Or it might not be.

 

Kanan started training one Jedi Padawan and it is Luke's destiny to train others. The other surviving Jedi were eliminated by Vader, the Inquisitors, the Stormtroopers and bounty hunters.

No, they cannot influence the Force. They can only impart information to the Jedi, which is what Obi-wan does for Luke. That is the power Obi-wan is talking about.

YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."


YODA: "A Jedi uses the Force, for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

The point is to pass on knowledge to the living. The Shaman of the Whills discovered that he could pass on this knowledge and other aspects of the Force to his fellow Whills. A group of Priestesses learned this trait and passed this knowledge on to Qui-gon, because he would be an important figure in finding the Chosen One and he was to help. Yoda was taught next because in addition to his training Luke, he would help Anakin when he died. Just as Obi-wan would help both Skywalkers in their time of need. All of this combines to ensure that there is still hope in the galaxy and that the balance can be restored.

 

I think the Force Priestesses are something far beyond just a ghost. That one was able to create life just by stepping on the ground.

 

The planet itself is one of the first places where life began and is strong with the Force. So that is probably part of it.

YODA; "Please show me who you are. See your face, I must."

SERENITY: "Now you see. We have achieved what you seek and live between the realms."

YODA: "Dead, you are?"

SERENITY: "Yes."

 

What are they doing when they aren't appearing as force ghosts?

Simple, they just exist as part of the force.

Consider it like them sleeping. They are still themselves, but they aren't conscious.

 

That makes no sense. I interpret to be one with the Force is your consciousness is the one of the universe, so that your body is the universe itself. Force ghosts are not omniscient nor omnipotent despite this because they suppose a reduction of being one with the Force.

 

"All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the Cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now." - Qui-Gon
So, in a way they're still around, all the time. He also described it as a place where there is no future nor past though nothing about being all knowing. The point of the training was to keep their consciousness after death, not become omniscient beings who can answers all questions because we know both Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong about Anakin

 

In the RoTJ junior novelisation, a point is made of how Ben can't remain manifest for long periods - he can only manifest a little, and he does so when he thinks it's critical that he talk to Luke.

Kenobi told him that his father was a good man who was killed by Darth Vader. And now Luke knows that was a lie.
So he walks away from Yoda's hut full of all the feelings that Yoda waited so long to warn him about.
There are many dangers in the swamps of Dagobah. Once, when Luke was here training with Yoda, he was alert to every one of them. Even when running at full speed, every step was chosen carefully.
But today he walks carelessly through the muck and mire. There's so much in his head he cannot see what is around him.
He stops briefly to check on some repair work R2 is doing on the X-wing, but he can't focus. He is overwhelmed. Unable to act or even think clearly.
Far away and yet nearby, Obi-Wan senses all this and knows he must help.
Like most Jedi, Obi-Wan became part of the Force when he died.
But Obi-Wan did something the others did not. Guided by the discoveries of his own master, Qui-Gon Jinn, Kenobi found a way to live after death and even return to walk briefly among the living. Not for himself, not for some greedy dream of immortality, but to continue the great fight against evil and tyranny.
It takes a great effort, a great will, but he collects himself, pulls together the pieces of his consciousness from the endless flowing energy of the Force, and appears before Luke.
He cannot do this often, only at the key moments in Luke's journey, when a misstep might spell doom, not only for Luke, but for any hope of bringing balance back to the Force and freedom to the people of the galaxy.
And this, he senses, is the most critical moment of all.

...

"Your insight serves you well, says Obi-Wan. "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."
Luke looks away, across the swamp into the mist and murk. His mind, however, is clearing.
"What about my mother? Who was she? What happened-"
"No, Luke," says Obi-Wan. "Let that truth stay with me for now. You carry too many burdens already."
Luke starts to argue, but sees the pain in his old master's face and simply nods.
Obi-Wan considers Luke. He cannot see the future as well as Yoda could, but he does sense that Luke will not be able to bury his feelings.
But, just as Yoda did, Obi-Wan wonders if, perhaps, that might not be a failing at all.
Obi-Wan and Yoda and Qui-Gon too, were masters of the Force. They buried their feelings and used the Force at its fullest power.
And they failed to stop the Emperor. They didn't even stop Anakin.
Perhaps Luke's feelings really will serve him.
But if not ... all will be lost.
Obi-Wan can sense his strength growing weak. He cannot bend the laws of nature any further. He must go.
It will be up to Luke now, he realizes. As he fades out of Luke's world and back into the Force, he says the only thing that is left to say.
"Luke, the Force will be with you ... always."

 

This is a genuinely great question.

To find out the answer, we would have to seek out and ask Raddus.

 

Were they wrong, or was it similar to the situation in The Matrix:

MORPHEUS
Do you believe it now, Trinity?
Trinity looks at Neo.

NEO
Morpheus, the Oracle... she told me --

MORPHEUS
She told you exactly what you
needed to hear. That's all.
Sooner or later, Neo, you're going
to realize just like I did the
difference between knowing a path
and walking a path.

Keep in mind that Ben did not tell Luke ahead of time that Palpatine had Force lightning, nor that said lightning could be blocked by a lightsaber. If Luke had not been in imminent mortal danger, what would have motivated Vader to turn from the Dark Side to rescue Luke?

 

This is a good point. It seems to me that appearing visually would be more difficult for a Force ghost than simply talking to them. In ROTS Qui-gon doesn't showing himself before the eyes of the living, and in ANH Obi-Wan does the same.

 

You know what, I was just watching Empire, and Luke does predict the future when he sees Han and Leia in trouble on Cloud City. So I guess that answers that. Force users can see the future. And probably more so as a Force ghost than a living being.

 

And the present as well...

YODA
Ready, are you? What know you
of ready? For eight hundred years
have I trained Jedi. My own counsel
will I keep on who is to be trained!
A Jedi must have the deepest
commitment, the most serious mind.
(to the invisible
Ben, indicating Luke)
This one a long time have I watched.
All his life has he looked away...
to the future, to the horizon.
Never his mind on where he was.
Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh!
A Jedi craves not these things.
(turning to Luke)
You are reckless!
-------------------------
YODA
Concentrate... feel the Force
flow. Yes. Good. Calm, yes.
Through the Force, things you
will see. Other places. The
future... the past. Old friends
long gone.

In fact, Luke even says earlier:

LUKE
Still... there's something familiar
about this place. I feel like...
I don't know...

STRANGE VOICE
Feel like what?

Chances are, Luke has probably sensed Yoda watching him at some earlier point in his life as well, but didn't realize it until now.

 

I suppose it just depends on how good you are. The Priestess pretty much sticks around as long as she wants.

 

I would say they can see possible futures, but not the future in a predetermined sense. That was the likely meaning behind Yoda's "Always in motion..." line.

 

MotivateR5D4 wrote

It always bothers me when Luke calls out for Obi-Wan on Cloud City and Obi-Wan doesn't respond. I get the whole tough love aspect and Luke needing to get through this on his own, but he's literally on the brink of death, and if it's not hard for Obi-Wan to appear to him, why wouldn't he?

This has been partially answered but IMHO the issue is and remains free will. Luke is not an automaton or a puppet on strings, he is old enough to stand on his own feet and to assume personal responsibility for his own actions. This inevitably includes that he has to figure out and find ways to get himself out of the mess only he is responsible for having gotten into in the first place.

And if they have none, then what are they doing all the while everything else is going on in the galaxy?

Hopefully acting as guardian angels for those that are desperately in need, and within the whole galaxy that's not just one individual with the name Luke Skywalker.

When Luke says in ROJ "I can't do it, Artoo. I can't go on alone" he is in desperate need of spiritual guidance which compells Obi-Wan to reveal himself and, IMHO, for good reason.

 

Yes, this is shown in the ROTJ novelization:

"He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
felt drawn.
"Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free
will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be
seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew
these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be
read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always
been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate
vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will
then bring him before me."

Vader bowed low. "As you wish."

 

Not allowed by what?