CT Is there any real reason why the OT will never get an unaltered release?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by IG-85, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    Strawman.

    "1%" would be nearly seven million people clamoring for the OOT - quite a big market for a Blu-ray release, no?

    Not trying to be rude, but this statement was so bizarre, I had to re-read your post a few times to know if you were serious.
  2. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Your point is self-defeating. Having multiple versions of a film available will allow people to think for themselves and choose which one they prefer. Having only one means that Lucasfilm is thinking for us, saying that "this" version is the real version and the only one that is worthwhile, the one that everybody will watch and accept regardless of their opinions.
  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    Source for this? I admit it's quite possible that once ROTJ was made/released, Lucas might have wanted to put Ian's Emperor portrayal into TESB, but did he say this back in '83 or up to the late eighties?
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hardly.

    Are we sure those numbers are accurate and not inflated? Can you guarantee that it's seven million people and not one million?

    It is serious. The new generation of kids should be allowed to develop their own thoughts and feelings regarding the films and not be conditioned by their parents to feel like they do. Here's a dad who showed the Saga to his sons, last fall. Now, while he showed them in an order that he felt comfortable with showing them, there was one thing that he did that was right. And that was not force his children to experience the films like he did. He showed the Blu-Ray versions and not the 2006 DVD's or the older THX versions. He didn't tell them about Han shooting first, Anakin's ghost was an old man and you didn't see the Wampa. None of that. Instead, he let his children see it for the first time as is and save for the order in which he did it, he didn't influence them. That is how it should be. It's how I will handle it for my children and that's how everyone should do it. Because sooner or later, we aren't going to matter. These children are going to be growing up with the SE's and the PT and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

    You have options. You can either choose to watch those copies of the films through the internet, online ordering or if you kept them. Or just don't watch them at all. But as I said, that only applies to you and me. The next generation and the generation after that aren't going to care as much. Also, you can apply this to any theatrical cut that's made, since we're watching the version that they want us to see and not what we should see. Like when a studio comes in and chops the film to hell like "Nighthawks" or "Highlander 2", instead of letting the director have his say. Hell, the latter was altered by the studio and the director was later able to make changes to release a more coherent version of the film that should've been released.

    No, no quote that I am aware of. But I'm sure it sat in the back of his mind, either in 83 or more likely in the early 90's when the itch to make the PT finally hit him. He just didn't do it in 96, because he didn't want to fly him out there for that one scene. But in 03, since Ian was on set and in makeup, he went ahead and shot the new footage. The content of what was said, though, that was something that came up prior to then. Probably at least as far back as 2002 or 2001. Lucas's feelings about the visuals in ANH is documented in the 1977 Rolling Stone article that came out at the end of the summer and he did talk about it on the 97 VHS release. We know about Jabba and the Wampa, as they were documented in the Insider and other magazines. We know that he wanted more to the Max Rebo band scene, but a lot of the details came in the 96. Including the addition of Boba Fett walking around and flirting with one of the dancers. Some of the support for this is in the recordings for "Lapti Nek", which is pretty long for a song that was only heard for a few seconds compared to the Cantina music or "Celeb
  5. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    First, with all the talk of "world peace" and the "rest of the world", I assumed you were talking about the world when you said "1%"? And sorry, that is the wrong number - it's actually 70 million.

    What parents choose to show their kids is strictly their business. However much you personally disagree with it, showing kids the OOT is not some objective evil. Just like parents have the right to have a kid baptized and grow up in whatever church they want, which is way more important than deciding which version of a movie they will see. This is just a very weak point; parents who are that much of purists will choose not to show their kids the prequels anyway. Or even just show them the OOT on DVD/laserdisc, or an HD despecialized Blu-ray edition that's out there (the version I plan to show to my nephew). It would barely make any difference.

    And I'm someone who grew up with the prequels. Never saw the originals in theaters, so I have no nostalgic attachment to them. If you really believe kids should be allowed to develop their own thoughts, they should be shown both the originals and special editions in good quality, to be completely fair.
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    ^ This.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not sure my kids have ever seen the OOT, although I grew up on it. They can if they so choose, I still have the VHS tapes and a VCR/DVD combo. We've just always watched the DVDs or Blu-Rays.
  8. Rowboatcop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Again, are these numbers for real and aren't inflated.

    I never said that.

    You assume that all these parents are going to be purists like yourself or a fan of the SE's like myself. There are people who plain don't give a damn either way and probably outnumber the alleged 70 million. In that article, the father isn't a big fan of the PT and didn't like a lot of the changes in the OT, but didn't let it influence his children's first viewing.

    Well, I don't own the 2006 DVD, nor the THX tapes which I got rid of long ago. That said, I won't object to the children when they're old enough from looking it up on their own. And even let them know about the making of it, when they have the patience to sit down for those kinds of things. And I'm sure that father will probably do the same thing. That said, a lot of parents probably aren't going to do what you will do or even what I will do.

    SINNER!!!

    :p

    Are you serious? How in the blue hell is any of what I said about future generations creepy and weird?
  10. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    I wish he'd put them out and heal the rift in Star Wars fandom.

    I still hanker for an Ultimate Edition where everthing is released, from the OOT to the 3D versions.
  11. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    This.

    Personally, it has nothing to do with which version is superior or which one deserves to be preserved. It's about having all versions of the films released for everyone to enjoy. Each and every version has its own little quirks and it's a shame to lose any of that. I'll openly admit that I prefer the O-OT to the other versions, but that doesn't mean that I hope the other versions just...go away. They have a right to exist and be released alongside the O-OT and vice versa.
  12. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    Yes...?

    But you did say that your way is the right way, that everyone should be doing, implying that any other way is simply wrong.

    I am not a "purist". And if it's not any kind of purists, why are people going to "force his children to experience the films like he did", or "influence" and condition the kid, when they don't give a damn? That doesn't make any sense.

    Exactly. Whether the OOT will be released on Blu-ray or not. So what is your point?
  13. Rowboatcop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    No! The children of the future must be protected from...what actually happened.
  14. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4


    Probably your comments that there is only one RIGHT way to show SW to your children and your way is ONLY way, the way it SHOULD be. So you are telling people how they should do things with their children.
    You said that a dad showing the SE to his children is RIGHT so therefore showing the OOT is WRONG.
    You said that he did not force his children but he did, if you show them the SE or OOT you are making the choice for them. If they know nothing about SW and you choose a version for them, that is forcing them, that is influencing them.

    Also you said that there is nothing wrong with children growing up with the SE and PT, so therfore it is wrong for them to grow up with the OOT.

    Lastly, you said that children can look up the OOT on their own. But the problem is that 30-40 years from now the VHS tapes will be near unwatchable and VHS players will be hard to find. The DVD will not be for sale in most stores and the DVD format could very well be gone as well. The original prints will have faded away or degraded to the point where you can not watch them or make new prints. So then the original version will be gone and forgotten. And that is what Lucas wants.

    "The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the [Special Edition] version."
    --George Lucas, 1997

    Regards
    Nordom

  15. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    I'm not really sure what your point is. Of course there are options, so why not have them all available on one disc? Your original statement made it seem like watching the OOT was brainwashing future generations. For the parents who want to show their kids the originals, that's fine. For the parents who want to show their kids the special editions, that's also fine. For the people who just don't care, they might enjoy going between versions just to have something "new" to watch, like a bonus feature. Nothing wrong with any of these scenarios.

    I don't have a preference between the original and special edition of Alien. Both are great, but it's nice to have both. Apart from the wishes of the artist, there's no reason why Star Wars releases cannot offer different versions as well.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Is there proof of this? Can you verify that it is actually 70 million different people and not someone pissing in the pool to try muddy the waters? I mean, I can go and create fifty Twitter accounts and say whatever in a poll.

    Letting the kids develop their own thoughts and feelings is the right way, because we want our children to be individuals and not part of a group think. Not just with the movies, but in general.

    A person like that father is someone who chose to let his kids feel what they wanted to feel about the Saga and the OT in particular. When it's someone who insists that they see the films the way they did and thus experience it like they did, that's what I take issue with.

    My point is that the fans who want their kids to experience it like they did, right down to how it used to be, shouldn't do that to their kids because they want them to see it as they did. They should just put in the movie and let it be.

    I never said that they had to show it in a particular order or that they had to a version.

    Not what I said either. I said that the father was right to show the films to his children the way that he did. I pointed out that he had his preference for both the order and version, but that he didn't force it upon his children which was right. He chose the Blu-Ray and that was fine. He could've shown the 2006 DVD's and that would also be fine. So long as he didn't influence his children in a direct way.

    Right, but if you are doing it because you have an agenda it is more purposeful than not caring and not having an agenda other than wanting to show these films to your children. The father didn't have an agenda other than he wanted his kids to see the films. He didn't put any thought as to why he showed that version of the films. Nor did he say anything about it to them.

    I never implied that it was wrong. Just that it won't matter in the long run if a five year old is given his introduction only off of the SE and not the O-OT. Especially when most parents aren't going to give a damn and will wind up showing the version that they own. Be it the 2006 DVD or the 2011 Blu-Ray.

  17. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    Like I said, I assumed you were talking about 1% of the world, so all I was saying is that 1% of the world = seventy million.

    What if the entire reason for the parent showing the kid the films is because they were his favorite movies as a kid? If so, what's wrong with showing the kid the same version that they saw? And frankly, it's none of your business. Or anyone's business. It's just a movie. It's entertainment. I could argue that fans who only show their kids the special editions and the films I-VI are trying to condition their kids just as much. I don't care.

    Again, why not? Is there something morally wrong with it? I don't see how parents not caring about which version of the movie they show their kids makes it any better. You said the number of people who don't give a damn outnumber these kind of people anyway, so why does it matter so much? And ultimately, if this is your point, what does this have to do with releasing the OOT on Blu-ray? What does releasing the films on Blu-ray have to do with forcing people to conform? Or this just completely off topic?
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Needs more editing...
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Fine, you don't care. That doesn't stop others from doing so. My point is always about motivation. What is the motivation to show something. Showing the movie in general isn't conditioning, because there are different factors for why one views the films or television series. But when it becomes more specific and biased, such as "I want them to experience it as I did exactly", then I take issue. And unfortunately when it comes to passionate fanbases, it becomes more than just mere films.

    Because it allows the kids to make up their own mind whether they love it or hate it. If they're conditioned to hate something or love something with parental bias, then that prevents them from developing their own opinion if they think that it has to suck or has to be good.

    It's a side topic based on comments regarding seeing the films as they were, because that's how you first remember them. Your memories aren't gone or affected, just because the movie is slightly different. Likewise, if one intends to introduce them, then one should take a largely hands off approach.
  20. brainsaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Someone should tell George how much money he would make if Lucasfilm released an officially licensed piece of software that let you assemble your own custom edit of each film and save it. That would sell like hotcakes, right? And it fits nicely with the marketing model of Lucasfilm. ; )



    Hey maybe we can convince Lucas to re-release an unaltered Laserdisc edition of the OT?
  21. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    darth-sinister: I'm not sure I disagree with you. Since this has nothing to do with releasing the OOT on Blu-ray though I don't think there's any reason to continue this discussion here.

    Don't give him ideas. :p
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    I see why you say this, but every interaction with art is, in effect, being told how to experience something. Art serves to draw attention to things. Both the things the artist wants to point at, and the things the viewer draws connections between, in terms of the art and their own experiences.

    Most things in life are curated, on purpose or by accident. You're arguing that people shouldn't curate a particular film experience for others. But experiences of SW as a film are already curated by the theater you saw it in (or the TV channel), the guy who got up to go to the bathroom while Ben is being killed, the cousin who said you should see it because X, etc.

    Is this SW curation issue not the same as someone saying, "Hey, check out Blade Runner. But see if you can get the director's cut; I didn't like Harrison Ford's narration in the theatrical one, and I don't think you would either."

    It might even be less "biased" than that even - it would likely be closer to "I had a great experience with this film, its general aura, if you will. I want you to have that experience too. Your experience will necessarily differ in some ways, but it was so meaningful to me that I want to try to pass it on to you with the greatest fidelity I can manage."

    To be technical, memories change every time they're re-accessed, and mutate over time regardless. So the memories wouldn't be gone, but they could be strongly affected. To be fair, the effects could come from anywhere (any experiences).

    If this is one's goal, wouldn't it be easier to do if the different versions of the film were available in the same quality, just with differing content? Or do you consider low resolution images, artifacting, built-in black bars, and outdated audio quality intrinsic parts of the OOT experience?

    Also, I really don't see anything wrong with curating experiences for people. Censorship, I am emphatically not a fan of, but I don't think they're the same thing.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In that regard, that cannot be helped and is very understandable since the objective comes from the source. Be it the studio, the producers, the director and what not.

    The former definitely fits under the category of what I argue against. In the matter of the latter, there needs to be a balance that doesn't cross over into the former and yet isn't so far away from the latter. At best it should be, "Here are these movies. I've watched them for years and your free to watch them with me." And then simply pulling out the version that you own and putting it in the player. Maybe there's an alternative where the child asks to watch them on their own accord.

    It depends on which points we're talking about with memories. I mean, we all know when we first saw the OT and the order we first saw them. We also remember what there was about a particular version of the film we saw. In terms of the feelings that we had, I can recall my feelings from the first time I saw ANH. And even other details from that point in time. So I can look back years later and it comes to mind while watching it for the nine hundredth, even with all the changes made. A while ago, I was at my mom's place on Christmas Eve watching "Home Alone" and talking about when we had first saw it in 1991. Granted, the movie is the same, but the memories remain even if it had been changed. Nearly twenty one years after twenty two years after the fact.

    As I said, to me it's simply pulling out whatever is on your shelf and just putting it in the player. Quality presentation if I was showing the THX version isn't a factor.


    I only see it as a
  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Personally, I had my own immediate reactions, but they change over time, and can definitely be affected by analyses of the films I've read (people bringing up points I didn't consider) as well as other seemingly unrelated experiences (classes on art, film, etc).

    I don't think it's better necessarily for people to espouse no preference, or show the films in some kind of information vacuum about their creative process. It's only when someone tries to enforce their own preferences on someone else that it becomes problematic. Present the films, say "I prefer this version, because X," whatever. Argue over/discuss the bright spots and dark spots of any version. Just don't say "you have to prefer this too."
  25. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    i still don't see why the ot dvds aren't good enough.
    so they're the from the laserdisc. so what?
    so they're not digitally remastered, it's still better than vhs

    edit---------------

    actually upon investigation i see it isn't anamorphic, blah blah blah...
    basically, i guess you guys are screwed. i'm glad it doesn't bother me.
    maybe when they remake the ot.... ha ha!