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PT Is there anyone who actually likes the concept of Midi-chlorians?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Seagoat , Apr 14, 2013.

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  1. Seagoat

    Seagoat Music and PT Section Sentinel star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Or am I the only one in the world?

    I mean, so many people make the mistake that they cause or create the Force, when Lucas has stated that it's the other way around.

    Plus, I like the possibilities we get with Darth Plagueis, creating Anakin, and all that immortality jazz. What do you guys think?
     
  2. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I think it's awful and a direct contradiction to Yoda's teachings in Empire.
     
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I find Obi-Wan's teachings in AOTC to be far more contradictory to ESB Yoda than midi-chlorians generally. (From my pov, the contrast in Obi-Wan in AOTC and ANH is intentional to show he has adapted).

    Midi-chlorians don't replace the mystical aspect of the force, it just adds a different perspective. You are supposed to watch these movies together, so Obi-Wan's introduction to the force in ANH, and Yoda's teachings in ESB are not voided. Qui-Gon still introduces us to the same concept in the force, I think it is intended that he doesn't just repeat what ANH Obi-Wan says.
    Midi-chlorians are more just catalysts, and add a new way of understanding a being's force-sensitivity, and an explanation of how a Jedi hears the will of the force. Qui-Gon speaks of the "living force", and the "will of the force", something that isn't (in words) covered in the OT. It is actually the same force entirely.

    I don't think Qui-Gon's dialogue in any way damages the OT. I do, however, think you really need to watch the OT to understand the force entirely, TPM doesn't completely cover it. But when you get to ANH and Obi-Wan states that it is an energy field created by all living things, and Yoda says we are "luminous beings", IMO it isn't any different a concept to how Qui-Gon portrayed it.
    Both Qui-Gon and ANH Obi-Wan reference using your feelings ("Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." and "This time I want you to let go of your conscious self and act on instinct."..."Stretch out with your feelings!"). Qui-Gon states "Everything happens for a reason." where Obi-Wan says "In my experience there is no such thing as luck." There is more to it, but that's off the top of my head.

    And midi-chlorians and the Sith manipulating them in contrast to the Jedi being symbiotic with them is an interesting concept. It speaks volumes that the Jedi are more focused on doing what they think is destined by the force's will, where the Sith control their own destiny introvertedly. Something I really like about the Star Wars movies is the symbolism of who is the dominant Master in each film. In TPM it's Qui-Gon, ROTS it's Sidious, and by the end of ROTJ Luke has become his own Master. Both Qui-Gon and Sidious teach Anakin a contrasting lesson about midi-chlorians (in TPM and ROTS), and I get the feeling that Sidious filled a void left when Qui-Gon died, and does something for Anakin Obi-Wan possibly couldn't. From the Sith's pov anyway.
     
  4. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Ah, but that is only half of what Yoda says. He follows this by telling Luke that we " are not this crude matter", that we are not our physical bodies. We are not our bodies, or our midiclorians. Our bodies are irrelevant. We are our minds, our focus and our spirit. We certainly aren't what's our blood. That Yoda, that guy, never heard of these force bacteria. I wish I never heard of them either.
     
  5. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 23, 2001
    One of the major themes of The Phantom Menace was 'symbiosis'. This was obviously something Lucas had become interested in when he was writing the film.

    The midicholrians were an attempt to broaden this theme to include the force. Lucas was trying, I believe, to deepen what Yoda had outlined in ESB.

    I think it's a fairly interesting idea, and it doesn't need to be seen as contradicting anything else we hear about the force, but it's not developed fully enough - just thrown away and left to hang in the air. It seems to reduce the spiritual aspect of the force, in favour of making it seem more mechanistic. I don't hate it, but I don't love it.
     
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  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011

    Fair enough. However, I still think the fact that the force was hereditary and partially physically pre-determined was already there in the OT. It's the reason Luke is a threat to the Sith, and a "New Hope" for the Jedi.
    I just watched TPM actually, and I can see one line that kind of backs up your argument. During Qui-Gon's talk with Anakin he states "Without the midichlorians, life could not exist." Yoda on the other hand states "Life creates it, makes it grow." While both lines indicate some form of symbiosis, depending on your pov this could be a contradiction or a consistency. I'm not sure tbh, but I like both the PT's and the OT's approach to this.
    Like the OP stated, the concept opens up an expansion of the idea of the force with the topic of the Sith's manipulation of the midi-chlorians. ROTS really gave the midi-chlorian concept a valid reason to be added. While it heavily implies it is open to interpretation (hell, a lot of Star Wars is), you can't deny that the irony (of the possibility of) Anakin's "father" being the Sith adds a new level to the saga generally. It's a re-ocurring theme... Anakin killing Dooku (his Master's Master's Master), Anakin "saving" Sidious (his father figure, at least) from Mace, Luke losing part of his innocence when he is defeated by Vader and revealed to be his son, and Anakin killing Palpatine to save his son.
    I agree that the force goes beyond the physical, but I don't see a strong contradiction in the way the Jedi, and the force, are presented to us in the PT.
     
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  7. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    - George Lucas, 1977 (quoted in The Making of Star Wars by JW Rinzler, 2007)

    Now, it's not exactly the same as what was presented in TPM, but like a number of other ideas that have been unearthed from the early days (C-3PO being originally built by a little boy in a junkyard, the notorious Journal of the Whills outline strongly resembling the broad plot of TPM), it's a concept that GL actually did come up with as supporting material when he was first creating the big picture.

    I'm guessing that the above quote has more to do with his earliest development of the Jedi Master who would stand in for the now-deceased Obi-Wan in ESB (i.e. Buffy/The Critter/Minch/Yoda) than the likes of Obi-Wan, Vader and Luke, however.
     
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  8. Darth Vader's Chest Plate

    Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 18, 2013

    I always thought that Yoda was talking about being physically strong (and large) does not equate to being strong with the force. Midichlorians don't contradict this. I don't have an issue with them as they don't contradict anything from the OT.
     
    Alexrd likes this.
  9. Zapdos

    Zapdos Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 7, 2013
    I think the concept is silly. It raises a lot of questions, and noone would have missed it if he'd never mentioned it in the first place
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Which doesn't contradict anything. The point he's trying to show Luke is that body strenght is irrelevant when it comes to use the Force. Not that the human body is useless and thus midi-chlorians are useless. (edited)
     
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  11. rumsmuggler

    rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 7

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    Aug 31, 2000
    I don't mind them, but they weren't explained well at all in TPM.
     
  12. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Master star 6

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    Jul 24, 2010
    they don't bother me that much

    Yoda makes it sound anyone can be sensitive to the force, when that clearly isn't the case, even in OT
     
  13. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    It makes perfect sense for a science-fantasy religion. Too many of you out there have forgotten these are Space Robot Movies.
     
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  14. darth_mccartney

    darth_mccartney Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 3, 2008
    I like the idea as there is a scientific explanation behind the force rather than 'it's a mystery'
     
  15. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Midichlorians aren't nearly as annoying to me, as they used to be.

    Dathomir's green force-goo in a bowl is far worse.:p
     
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  16. Revenge of the Dak

    Revenge of the Dak Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 27, 2012
    If watching the saga in order, the whole midi-chlorian vs. luminous beings is really a evolution of understanding the Force, IMO.
     
  17. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Oct 2, 2000
    Darth_Nub
    Did the word "midi-chlorian" actually exist in 1977, then?

    I love the fact that TPM deepened our knowledge of the Force in unexpected ways. It told us that the Force has a will - which, to me, makes it more mysterious and exciting - and that there's a microscopic lifeform that functions as a link of awareness between us and the Force. It's because of them that the Jedi know about the Force and can attain their awesome power.
    This doesn't ruin anything for me. Quite the contrary - This was part of GL's Force lore from the beginning and I'm very happy that he chose to share it with us. More of that stuff, please!





    - I want more, and I know I shouldn't.
    - That should be enough for you. Now, get on board.

    /LM
     
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  18. KilroyMcFadden

    KilroyMcFadden Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Yes, there must be at least a hundred people that don't mind them at a fan site somewhere.
     
  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes.
     
  20. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 5, 2013
    Mido-chloriants were not very complimenting of Yoda's teachings to Luke in ESB and ROTJ. What was told in the prequels was that Jedi sort of had this "blessing" that was mid-chloriants. It is only because of them that the Jedi are capable of using the force and knowing of its will. Any connection the Jedi had to the force was because of their Mido-chlorian count.

    Yoda's teachings were that the Jedi grew with the force, and that as they proceeded to know more about it and to use it in different ways, you develop a stronger bond with the force. Nothing to do with your count of Mido-chlorians or how many you had, it was more of a bonding relationship with the force.

    I think that they're cool, and I think Yoda's teachings were cool as well. I think they are both two great way to explain the force, but only one should have been mentioned and taught.
     
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  21. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    That's awesome.

    Or is the midi-chlorian count a product of having a strong connection with the Force? We really don't know which causes which.

    I've never heard him say that, but that interpretation is still applicable.





    - Too sure of themselves, they are.
    - So certain are you.

    /LM
     
  22. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 5, 2013
    What I was trying to get at was that Yoda's teachings resulted in that with Luke. Luke was not strong nor powerful when he began, but as the years went on he slowly was able to harness his power and use it better and better. It was as if he was growing with the force as he grew in his knowledge about it.
     
  23. EHT

    EHT New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I didn't mind midichlorians, and I don't think they contradicted OT perspectives on the Force. If anything, they added to them and gave some scientific reasons why certain things about the Force were the way they were. Such as...

    Luke: "You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it... I have it... and... my sister has it."
     
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  24. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 11, 2013
    I absolutely love the concept.

    It is fascinating to think that, inside each and every human being (and, err, alien) in the galaxy, there exists an entire race of microscopic, cellular Force-wielders that assist and interact with their hosts in various discrete ways.The symbiotic relationship shared between the Jedi/Sith and their Midi-Chlorains is almost like a Utopian partnership of sorts; gone are the standardized roles of master and apprentice, and in their places are two separate entities cooperating and playing off of each others' strengths and weaknesses in tune with the will of the Force subtly and without and need for any direct, verbal communication.

    Those who complain that the Midi-Chlorians contradict the Original Trilogy and that they demystify the concept of the Force seem to have missed the point of them entirely. The Midi-Chlorians themselves are not the Force any more than a Jedi or a Sith is the Force. "Midi-Chlorians are a microscopic life form that resides within all living cells and communicate with the Force[...]We are symbionts with them[...]Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
     
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  25. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    And I counter that by saying almost everyone on this thread misunderstands the points Yoda was teaching Luke.

    The lesson is that you are your mind and your spirit. That your power flows from your mind and your spirit. Not your body, your body is irrelevant. Your blood is irrelevant. That is what he is saying, people here miss the point entirely, purposely much of the time. This is not a man who has ever heard of a midiclorian.
     
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