PT Is there anyone who actually likes the concept of Midi-chlorians?

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Perhaps we can say, it was needed to you but it was not needed for me, so it was down to the individual if they felt it was needed or not. But there was no universal law that said this HAD to be in the films.

No, since they are a separate life form then their DNA is not a part of our cells.
They live inside our cells and do something for us and we get something from them.
But the term symbiosis means two separate life forms working together. We humans have bacteria living in our intestines, they help us and we help them. But their DNA isn't a part of our DNA and it isn't passed down.

Mitocondria are not a separate life form, some speculate that it's origin might have been a bacteria that joined a single cell organism long ago. But what the mitocondria are now doesn't fit the bill of symbiosis because they are not a separate life form. They have their own DNA and can reproduce on their own. But they lack DNA for several of the proteins that are neccessary for them to work, that DNA is found within the DNA of the cell.

But they are not called organelles, they are called a microscopic life form that live in our cells in sybiosis with us. So they are not organells nor are they like mitocondria. They are a separate, independent life form.

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That is one interpretation, an other is that the Force told the midis to create Anakin to right the imbalance by killing the Sith. Both are possible given what the films tells us.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Neither did the OT.

Well said.

 

Actually, Qui-Riv-Brid said nothing about "liking" midichlorians. The point was that some people insist midichlorians are the Force, or equivalently "the Force is now a bunch of bacteria in your blood", despite the fact that TPM said otherwise, and often despite the fact that others have tried to set the record straight. That is pretty much the definition of ignorant.

 

People now have forces and can be more force-y. Yay science.

 

I don't have a problem with midichlorians. I think it's just a simple way to explain how force sensitive padawans are tested.

 

Qui-Gon first became interested in Anakin's possible connection to the Force, when he learned that the latter participated in pod racing. Apparently, humans lack the reflexes to be serious pod racers. Qui-Gon's interest intensified when he tested Anakin's midichlorian count. But I believe he was finally convinced after Anakin won the pod race.

So I find the above argument a bit perplexing.

I'm sorry, but so what? Yes, the OT didn't need the topic of midichlorians. In fact, the PT didn't need them either. On the other hand, there was no need to avoid or delete the topic of midichlorians altogether.

But I don't see why people are making such a big fuss about it. Lucas could have went both ways by either including the mention of midichlorians or avoiding them altogether. It was his choice. And the subject didn't harm the story one way or the other. A lot of fans seemed to be making a big deal out of nothing in order to complain about something.

 

You mean THAT isn't what fanatics are supposed to do?

 

I find it funny that people think that midi-chlorians are bacteria. Why they would think that amazes me.

 

I haven't read the book yet, but this sounds interesting. Earlier Master Elaine Nega asked "So how did the Jedi chose their younglings then? Gut instinct?" and,I've been thinking about that with regard to some of the arguments here and with what you suggest the Darth Plagueis novel says; so here's my take.

Yes, the Jedi do rely, to an extent, on gut instinct. Qui-Gon doesn't go around testing every child he meets for their midiclorian count. He test Anakin because he has a feeling about him; "There's something about the boy".

He then tells Schmi that had Anakin been born in the Republic then he would have been tested and recognised as Force sensitive. The immediate conclusion to jump to is that, testing for midiclorians is what he is talking about but...once on Coruscant the Jedi then agree to test the boy. So, the test(s) isn't(aren't) the midiclorian count.

So, there may be a theory, that some hold to and some don't, and some are sceptical but open to the possibility, that midiclorians are what Qui-Gon suggests they are.

But they may not be.

 

Mitochondria are separate life forms. Their DNA is separate from our own.

In terms of mitochondria being a model for midiclorians it should be noted that mitochodrial DNA is passed through maternal inheritance excusively (a fact that allows female genetic inheritance to be tracked), and there are good biological reasons for that.

 

I never thought I'd see the force get poured into a bowl or appear as a green mist... so the idea that some fans see midis as bacteria, isn't that big a deal to me.

 

Some parasites give up things that are "necessary for them to survive on their own".

Symbiosis can involve a pretty extreme degree of "intertwining" - such as between fungus and plant, in the case of lichen.

Mitochondria just take it one step further.

 

Exactly. Mitochndria are perfect as an example of symbiotic life forms. The mitochondria cannot exist outside of the cells of the organisms they reside in, but the organisms they reside in cannot exist without the mitochondria. The mitochondria play a role in cell respiration, allowing the cells to absorb proteins and other bio-chemical compounds.

 

Nah...its just a cheap pejorative.

 

Well since mitochondria have many similarities with bacteria and some think that they might have have been bacteria that merged with a single cell organism long ago. If Midi-chlorians are similar to Mitochondria, which many argue, then they too would have similarities with bacteria.

So an over-simplification perhaps but not totally basless.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

3.) is not sentient (sorry to those that think the Force is a god)
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not that I think the force is anyway supernatural but according to the PT the force has a will,

therfore is sentient to an extent.

 

But there are examples of organisms that have cells without mitochondria but mitochondria, as you say can not survive by itself. Some of it's DNA has been given to the cell. So mitochondria might not qualify as a separate life form.
Lichen is a composite life form, made up of two life forms that can survive on their own but they work together for mutual benefit.

Midis are present in all life forms in SW but that isn't what is significant, it is the NUMBER of them. Number isn't something that DNA or genes have much to do with. Mitocondria number varies by cell type, cell that use lots of energy have more than cells that use less. The number can also change depending on outside factors.
Having lots of midis in your cells means a greater consumption of food, since they are life forms then they need food as well. Some are needed for there to be life but why have loads of them if that gives no benefit to the midis themselves or the host?
And if a high number is a benefit to all hosts/midis then everyone should have a high count.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Then I stand corrected.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending midiclorians, just saying that in creatures that do have mitochondria they are acting as one part of a symbiotic relationship. They have separate genetic inheritance but neither party can live without the other.

The point you make about numbers is a very good one, btw.

 

I like the concept

 

He only says that Anakin would have been identified early. Given that the math does not work out for the Jedi to be personally inspecting all individuals born in the Republic, that leaves midichlorian testing.

If you're looking for a source which attempts to dispute the traditionally understood role of midichlorian count, Darth Plagueis is not it:

And of course we know what Lucas had to say about it:

"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells."

So "G-canon" and C-canon are in alignment.

 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret, we know they aren't really bacteria.

 

I like the midi-chlorian concept for any number of reasons, not least of which is that the midis dramatize, or allegorize, the fine-grained interiority of the prequel movie landscape, making explicit the idea that a bewildering array of microscopic variables are responsible for the fall of Anakin, and by extension, the trajectory and fate of human beings and human societies. This, I contend, is a pretty sophisticated notion to implant in a mythological story -- i.e., fairy tale -- and is a damn sight more advanced than what you might care to find in the OT, or most religions, for that matter.

But instead of being hailed for his visionary insight and artistic discernment, George Lucas has been maligned non-stop for fourteen years over it.

 

Hated it then -hate it now.

 

I always thought the involvement in the Force of the midichlorians was just a theory to try to scientifically explain how the Force worked, in which Qui-Gon believed but wasn't popular among the other Jedi. I expected more to come of this, and in a way it did when Palpatine brought it up in EPISODE III. Midichlorian count didn't seem to make Anakin special, so by the time Luke came around, Obi-Wan and Yoda had no reason to mention it.