PT Is there anyone who actually likes the concept of Midi-chlorians?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Seagoat, Apr 14, 2013.

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  1. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    Ya I did enjoy seeing all the Sith not just Palps have an alter ego. Kind of like a bunch of DC superheroes gone ugly lol.
    Last edited by Darkslayer, Apr 24, 2013
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They didn't all operate that way.
  3. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    With Han stating in ANH that's it's all 'hokus pokus' and nonsense it was good to see in the PT that there was a definite thing that made a some one force sensitive, other wise it would have left it way to open in any following films just who was and wasn't a Jedi.

    The force needed to be defined and even though a few of you out there don't like the thought of midi-chlorians I think they filled that void well.
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  4. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    It never really came to my mind, but I saw the PT before the OT. Because of that, I never got hit with the RETCON shock if there was one. That said I like the force as it is now, and I feel like force sensitives are definitely a different class or species of some kind (Biological or spiritual explanation)
    And Midi-Chlorians do lend to the genetic explanation and the fact that some aliens are more likely to be fs.(Although like wizards in harry potter, there can be force sensitives that just crop up in non-fs families)
  5. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    Is there anyone who actually likes the concept of Midi-chlorians?

    Yes.

    I'm 32 and have been a SW fan ever since I watched The Empire Strikes Back for the first time when I was 8 at my grandparents' house on Thanksgiving Day, and I've never bought into this idea that the concept of Midi-chlorians somehow fundamentally changes the nature of what the Force is or that the concept contradicts what Yoda tells Luke in TESB; all that Lucas did by introducing the concept of Midi-chlorians was to explain HOW and WHY certain individuals are able to interact with and sense the Force. It's as simple as that.
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  6. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Just curious. How would you classify the other Sith of the past and future? I've only read a little of the EU and am wondering if they were any different than the few in the films.

    If Sidious was the politician and Plagueis was the scientist, what were the others?
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Apr 26, 2013
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I was referring to the alter ego thing. Some Sith did not have an alter ego or public persona.
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
  9. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I actually like him that way. He's the only "pure" Sith in the saga. Raised almost from birth in their ways and doesn't have to pretend to be someone else.
  10. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Midichlorians were a terrible idea introduced as a ham-fisted plot device to get Qui-Gon interested in getting Anakin off Tattooine.

    Hey George, how about making Anakin do something amazing with the force that accomplishes the same thing?
  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    That wouldn't make him any different from other Force-sensitive children.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Apr 28, 2013
  12. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

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    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    If he did something amazing that no other force user was capable of, it would.
  13. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Like what? And didn't they show that with the Podrace? Even if they didn't, it would all come down to his ability to use the Force (which was never in question) and midi-chlorians aren't there to show that he can use the Force. What is dealt with in the movie is someone created by the Force and with a huge potential. You can't show that in any other way and at the same time explain the audience why some being can use the Force while others don't (wether you like it or not).
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  14. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    That isn't all the introduction of the concept of the midi-chlorians achieves. It wasn't the point that he is just strong with the force, and besides that Qui-Gon senses something in Anakin before he tests his blood.
    Anyway, there is the theme of symbiosis between mutual beneficiaries and an added layer to the OT explanation of how a Jedi connects with the force, not a replacement of the original nature of the force we knew. It adds an element of mystery to Anakin's conception, whether the midi-chlorians were physically manipulated by the Sith, or the force itself created him to bring balance.
    The fact that Anakin is the chosen one makes ROTS very symbolic, if he had just been a regular Jedi, turning him would have been far less a statement. It is certainly a bigger **** you to the Jedi that must have been very satisfying for Sidious to achieve. IMO the force literally goes further out of balance with Anakin's turn, and there is a shift here where the force has (possibly) partially abandoned the Jedi. Purely speculation on my part. Furthermore, Vader's actions are more of a betrayal of the Jedi, where they depended on him as a type of saviour, and he becomes their biggest threat.
    Anakin's re-emergence in ROTJ (after watching the prequels), is both expected and a surprise. Some say, as the chosen one, the pre-determined aspect of his redemption means it is less of a special moment, as no one has free-will. I disagree, Anakin betrays himself and everything he believes in in Ep3, and his return sparked by the unconditional compassion of a son, represents the return of his soul, with or without the prophecy. The prophecy makes things more poignant.
    Mace attempting to kill the Chancellor also takes on a new level... there is a prophecy that Anakin will end the Sith, yet he attempts to do just that. I don't hate Mace by any length, but this was obviously a significant bad move. The last Jedi have IMO stopped believing in the prophecy after the fall of the Republic, and besides for Luke, there is little to say that Anakin could return. I suppose the prophecy could still exist without the midi-chlorians, but how would we know?
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  15. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Like what? Like levitation, flying, mind reading, telepresence, talking to animals, reanimating a dead animal, use your imagination. Racing a pod, who cares. [Removed.] ~Sx3

    No need for midichlorians if Anakin did something off the charts with the force.

    In fact that's one of my problems with the Space Jesus angle. We're told how special Anakin is but he never actually does anything special. Jesus had his miracles, Anakin raced pods and levitated fruit. Big whoop.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 28, 2013
  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    So creative and out of universe...

    George already did to great effect.

    Yes, racing a pod at 800 mph with just 9 years old while nobody from his species can do the same, seeing things before they happen... No big deal at all...

    Yes, there was a need for midi-chlorians to measure his potential, explain his origin and why some beings can use the Force while others can't. And Anakin already did something that makes Qui-Gon recognize his Force sensitivity.

    Indeed, yours, not the movie's.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
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  17. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

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    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    So space Jesus actually does nothing special that nobody else is capable of. [Removed. ~Sx3] The mostest powurful force user evar doesn't actually do anything special, at all.

    It just reinforces Lucas' tell-don't-show problem that infested the prequels and exemplifies how he trampled over his own creation with bad writing.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
  18. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I don't know about any space Jesus. I know about a character who shows great abilities and ended up bringing balance to the Force. You know, nothing special...

    Now someone who doesn't ignore what's on screen and doesn't agree with your opinion has low standards? [Removed. ~Sx3]

    Lucas is known for show-don't-tell, not the other way around. And it's not even a problem to begin with...

    Where was any trampling or bad writing present? Throwing terms around doesn't make them facts...
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
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  19. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Which is what you'd expect from Space Jesus, isn't it? If The Chosen One cant turn water into wine or reanimate the dead or heal the sick, he's a pretty tame Messiah. Anakin isn't really any more powerful than any other Jedi, aside from the fact that we are constantly told he is. But we never actually see anything supporting that claim.
  20. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I don't expect anything from any "space Jesus", therefore there is no need to throw around that strawman over and over.

    Where are we told that he is more powerful than any Jedi?

    Your claim.
  21. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Nope, only a special prophesied "chosen one" who will "restore balance to the force". Nothing messianic there at all. Virgin birth, nothing to see here...

    If you're OK with the virgin-birthed Space Messiah doesn't actually have any special abilities or powers, then so be it. It's hard to see why it was so important to steal the kid from his mother and bring him to Coruscant... Because he can race pods?

    Lucas used to be known for show-don't-tell, he completely lost it by the prequels. The opening of ANH is the perfect example. Without saying a word, we see how tiny and outgunned the rebels are, and how massive and powerful the Empire is.

    Now compare and contrast this method with what we actually get in the prequels. We are TOLD Obi-Wan and Anakin are friends, yet everything we see on screen is plastic and border-line confrontational -- they don't seem to like each other at all. We are told left and right how powerful Anakin is, but he never actually DOES anything to back this up. Have Anakin heal a sick person, or bring a dead animal back to life, or fly, and it says 10,000 times more than telling us how powerful Anakin is in dialogue. We get dialogue about Obi-Wan and Anakin's adventures in the elevator but we don't actually SEE any of it. That would have been the perfect opportunity for a hot James Bond style action sequence opening. We're told ham-fistedly how much Anakin and Padme love each other (look, they're awkwardly smiling at each other and spouting Romeo and Juliet dialogue, they're in love!!!1!) instead of actually having their budding relationship actually gain meaning on screen -- because George doesn't know how to write that, so he has to TELL US how much in love they are.

    And just because you are blind to them doesn't mean they aren't. Midichlorians trample over the concept of the force laid down in the OT. All for a throw-away plot device that attempts to explain why Anakin has to be kidnapped and brought to Coruscant.
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, Apr 28, 2013
  22. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Virgin birth, prophecy, highest midichlorian count ever, none of this raises any messianic alarm bells? It would have been better, IMO, if Anakin simply were just some guy who went bad. But George had to over-inflate his importance and turn him into Space Jesus -- which means, a prophesied Messiah, which clearly he did, thus it is no straw man.

    Sidious says it, for starters. Multiple times. "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"; "I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda. ". Obi-Wan says it, when he notes that it's a higher count than Yoda's. Anakin says it himself. [Removed bait. ~Sx3]

    See above, it's all over the film and never delivered upon.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
  23. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    You were the one who called him space Jesus, and baselessly assumed that he had to do what Jesus was known for doing. So no, there is no correlation whatsoever.

    So now you're ignoring the very thing you apparently had a problem with: midi-chlorians, his origin and his potential. Again, that's not how you hold an argument.

    Source?

    That's not only another strawman for the discussion, but it's false as well.

    We are told that he has "exceptional skills", nothing more. And even if you believe that there is nothing to back this up (even though it's shown throughout the movies), it doesn't make it false. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    And how or why should he do any of that? Why should your opinion be considered more right (or more telling) than the person who created this fictional universe to begin with?

    We don't need to. It's not relevant to see that in order to tell the story Lucas wants. And again, another strawman argument.

    It did.

    Another opinion, not fact.

    So, those who don't agree with you are blind? You are the one with the burden of proof.

    They don't. But feel free to provide any evidence.

    So, you keep ignoring the arguments presented by others and the information that's provided on screen. There is nothing more that can be done. It's as the saying goes: the worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see.

    Yes, it is. You assume that because Lucas borrowed some concepts from Jesus origins, that the story and characters need to follow the same path. That's a strawman.

    Sidious says he "will become", therefore, he isn't.

    Again, he's predicting, not saying that he is the most powerful Jedi. And he also saw the rebellion be crushed and Luke become his apprentice, making his predictions very irreliable.

    Obi-Wan doesn't say anything about him being the most powerful Jedi. All he says that his midi-chlorians count is off the charts. Midi-chlorians measure a being's connection the Force, and that being's potential.

    Whatever Anakin says about it, is out of arrogance. Again, not reliable as a fact.

    I have. But apparently you haven't since none of those claims support yours.

    No, it isn't.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
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  24. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Well there was the AOTC scene where Anakin sky-dives from stories up to land on a speeder that wasn't even close to there when he jumped. I've always thought that was quite a large display of power.
    Not to mention Anakin's dreams all came true. He dreamed he would become a Jedi, he dreamed he would marry Padme, he dreamed Padme would die when the children were born.
    In TPM the force arguably leads Anakin to the inside of the droid-control ship. As silly as it is that he destroys it by accident, I don't think this is a coincidence, his strong connection to the force's will sent him there. This starkly contrast ROTS, where he directly takes control of his own destiny in joining the Sith, and it leads to his ultimate demise.
    And despite losing so much of his potential by the end of ROTS, he still kills Obi-Wan with ease in a ANH (I know Obi-Wan dropped his defence on purpose, but IMO he had no chance of defeating Vader at that age) and dominates Luke quite easily in ESB. Luke is only able to ultimately best him in ROTJ when he gives in to his anger, and Luke still had his full potential. Vader has been significantly weakened by the OT, and he still detects Obi-Wan on the Deathstar, and instantly knows when he sees the Hoth shield generator that the Rebels are stationed there. Plus, there is sensing Luke on several occassions, and reading Luke's mind, for example, realising Luke has a twin sister. And don't forget he ends the Sith with little resistance, ironically because his association with The Emperor and Sidious' blind arrogance allowed him a window too do it. It wasn't just killing The Emperor though, sacrificing his own life in conjunction with this brings balance to the force (obviously).
    He never reaches more powerful than the Emperor, but would have done.
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  25. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Once again, in film, [Removed bait. ~Sx3] -- virgin birth (check), arrival prophesied (check), healing the galaxy by bringing balance to the force (check). He's Star Wars' version of Jesus. Not just some former Jedi Knight who fell to the dark side. I'm not sure how you can argue this point, it's beyond clear. It's one of the few points George actually hammered.

    Having a high midichlorian count and then doing absolutely nothing with it doesn't seem very special. Once again, tell, don't show. The twisted throw-away plot device of midichlorians is only there in the first place because George told instead of showing.

    Exhibit A: Star Wars (1977), The Empire Strikes Back (1980), Return of the Jedi (1983)

    Exhibit B: The Phantom Menace (1999), Attack of the Clones (2002), Revenge of the Sith (2005)

    Kindly compare the opening of ANH and TPM for starters.

    B.S. and exhibit C. On top of the strained relationship the first thing Anakin does when they get in the apartment is challenge Obi-Wan's authority. Repeatedly. Actually, this is a case of showing one thing (a confrontational, adversarial relationship) after telling us another (their friendship as "brothers"). Some friendship.

    I quoted about six times where we are told Anakin is more powerful than anybody else. Your willful ignorance of evidence does not mean evidence is absent.

    Duh, to SHOW us how powerful Anakin the Space Messiah is.

    Not my opinion but the basics os storytelling that have been established over the course of thousands of years. And more ironically the George Lucas of 30 years ago.

    Yet it's more TELL DON'T SHOW, wouldn't you agree? Not to mention don't you think that could have been an exciting way to open the movie?

    Oh lord. [Removed. ~Sx3]

    [Removed. ~Sx3]

    No, people who ignore blatant evidence and logical arguments are blind. You just pretend all the in-film evidence doesn't exist or dismiss it as opinion.

    Already been done in this thread ad nauseum, even if you ignored it. I'm sure the phrase "Luminous beings are we; not this crude matter" should serve as a catalyst to jog your memory.

    [Removed. ~Sx3]
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 29, 2013
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