PT Is there anyone who actually likes the concept of Midi-chlorians?

If you say so.

You still haven't finished the quiz from before. Was the point of the scene that Luke could lift an X-Wing, or was the point of the scene that biology played no role in why Luke was there in the first place?

 

I don't consider the EU to be canon. It's pretty simple. I'm not actually saying you can't if you want to. Just don't expect me to accept EU explanations. You're free to enjoy them if you like. Just don't expect me to see them the way you do.

 

The point of the scene is that Luke's connection to the force is through mind and spirit, and that he must understand that connection if he wants to do something like lift a ship. That the weight of the ship is irrelevant. It is no different than lifting the small stones Luke lifted earlier. It's that Luke's mindset is wrong. It is that life and the force are one and the same. That they are both expressions of the same spirit. That life is spiritual, and that that spirituality is what binds the galaxy.

Essentially, he's saying Luke is making the same mistakes you are ironically enough

 

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

That's a question of parentage, not "mind" or "spirit". Yoda even comments disapprovingly that a Jedi must have a serious mind. Is Luke the only available candidate capable of being serious?

That concept is not inconsistent with a biological role in Force potential. ( We should not be surprised by this, because "who can use the Force" and "what can be done with the Force" are distinct topics. )

 

But is that connection biological or spiritual? If it's a matter of genes, they should be breeding Skywalker.

And surely, there must be others with those same genetic predispositions. Why only Luke cuts both ways. The Jedi were taken from their families, there must be countless brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles with those genes.

For every one Jedi, how many untrained relatives must there be who carry this genetic trait?

See the problem. We touched on that before.

If Luke's importance makes a point, it makes mine.

 

Biological. Biological traits are known to be passed from parent to child. The same cannot be said for "spirit".

Life is an expression of spirit? Whatever that means, it's not in the films.

Don't forget that this "problem" still exists in the case where midichlorians are replaced by "magical family-based spirit inheritance". Thus it does not support one position over the other.

Still rewriting dialogue, I see. The only time the verb "binds" was used, it was in reference to the Force. Not "spirituality".

 

And you clearly don't understand the lesson. You're just playing word games. You amuse me.

I'll ask you again, why do you think life makes the force grow?

 

Actually, it doesn't. The only reason Anakin turns on the Emperor is to save his son. If the will of the force was to rid the galaxy of the emperor IT HAD TO BE HIS SON.

It solves this question in a way that no other explanation does, that's not a coincidence by the way.

This shared destiny makes perfect sense. It always did. It's not until the PT came along with it's force bacteria that it gets botched

 

Why was it necessary for Luke to be Force-sensitive (and for the Force to choose to make him Force sensitive, in your interpretation) to make the Emperor want to kill him? Wouldn't the Emperor still have killed a high-ranking non-Force sensitive rebel leader? Wouldn't the appearance of a son, a last link to Padme, still have risked the re-awakening of Anakin within Vader making the Emperor want Luke dead?

So even accepting your version that there is no biological component to Force sensitivity (in direct contradiction of the films by the way), why would it need to choose to make Luke Force sensitive when it could still have achieved its aim (Vader killing the Emperor to stop him killing Luke) with a non-Force sensitive Luke?

 

If he was just a guy, he wouldn't have an audience with the Emperor in the first place, now would he? He was brought before him for a specific reason. I don't think you even thought about that, you just want to try and poke holes in what I said. Try harder

 

So you think if the Emperor had arranged for Luke to be killed at a distance, that Vader wouldn't have reacted and would simply have said "Ah well, never mind, at least he wasn't killed in front of me"?

I don't think I'm the one that needs to try harder.

 

I don't think the Emperor would have gone out of his way to deal with Luke one way or the other.

Although, they wouldn't even know who he was anyway. Luke used the force to destroy the Death Star.

No force, no reason to take him away from his farm. As I said, you didn't think that through

So yeah, try harder

 

Actually there was a reason to take him away from his farm: Obi-Wan needed to get to Mos Eisley quickly and didn't own a landspeeder. Plus Luke was a family member of people the Empire had killed, and had been in contact with the droids containing the Death Star plans, so if found he'd have been killed too (no great cosmic reason there, just that Obi-Wan being a Jedi would have wanted to keep an innocent person safe).

As far as the Emperor we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think that, discovering that Anakin's child (not knowing about Leia) had survived, the Emperor would want that child dead to prevent the familial ties/reminder of Padme from risking a rebirth of Anakin within Vader. Even the slightest risk of that was something the Emperor would do a great deal to extinguish.

Besides, if as you say it was the will of the Force for Vader to kill the Emperor then the Force would have simply found another way of doing it. Why, for example, once the Death Star destroyed the rebels could it not have been used against Coruscant to kill the Emperor?

 

Yeah, we disagree.

The Force chose what it chose, and it got what it wanted.

It's an elegant story, you guys butcher it

 

What would Anakin be breeding from? Judging by the state of his legs from the lava, I think it's safe to say his baby making days are over, unless he force protected his genitals. Acually thinking about it, is that why Vader was always angry his nether regions were reduced to burnt twigs?

 

I'm not the one rewriting quotes. Insisting on the actual words used in the dialogue, instead of different words, is not "playing word games". As someone once said, word choice is important. Except when it isn't.

Actually, it does:

If it's a matter of Force strength running in the Skywalker family "just because", they should still be "breeding Skywalker". Either way it runs in the family. In any offspring. So why not breed Skywalker? Why not clone Skywalker, if the Jedi have access to a secret clone lab they apparently paid for by prostituting themselves on the busy streets of Dagobah? That's why the approach helps neither argument.

 

I really don't know where people got that idea from.

 

He didn't need to.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

 

But my point was that Obi-Wan knew they would be gifted just by the fact that they were Anakin's offspring, so later on he wouldn't feel the need to test Luke.

On the subject of things characters didn't say, when Leia insisted she could never use the Force Luke told her that she could because she was related to him. He didn't say "you can use the Force because actually anyone can, and you are someone".

 

Well the topic that we are discussing is relevant to the films, and the references we are using are form movies. Lucas was the creator of Star Wars, it seems fit to use his movies as references for what we are discussing. Though books may help, I'd take a source from a movie over a source from a book.

 

But it would imply that mathematical skills were biologically inherited, if in fact the child was raised by mathematically challenged foster parents and the mathematically gifted parent had no influence on the child's development.

What if there was a mathematical problem to be solved and one person was told that they were the "last hope" of solving the problem?