Is there really a Darkside of the Force?

I have come to the conclusion that the force is not made up of two sides. There is only one entity, the force, and it is for all intensive purposes more based in the light side.

I believe the dark side of the force really isn't a part of the force, but a part of the person who utilizes it.

So when the force was off balance, it was because there was too much abuse of the force.

Dark Side users always rant about how they don't obey the force, the force obeys them. If that is the case, then if they really did listen to the force, they wouldn't be using it for the dark side.

I think this is also evident in how much of a strain it puts on those who utilize it darkly, both physically and mentally.

But what is everyone elses thought?

 

I believe the character Vergere made this same or similar point in Matthew Stover's SW EU novel Traitor. It has long been my belief that there are two different types of people in the world. Those who see black and white and those who see gray.
I see gray on most issues.

-Seldon

 

You are stardust. Everything in your body is the remainder from eons old supernova that cleaned out this area of the galaxy billions of years ago.

Every element that is in the stars is inside of you, in varying amounts and arrangments. When you, as a thinking entity look out into the Universe, you are in fact a piece of the Universe trying to understand itself.

The Universe is not an evil or good thing, it simply Is. But you? You can have agression and hate and fear and happiness and so on.

The Force is dependent on living things. "Life creates it, makes it grow." As a Jedi, you are not separate from the Force, you are one with it.

The Force becomes a tool for those thinking beings that can harness it. This tool can be used for compassion, or destruction. Compassion is not the way of unthinking nature. Nature is harsh. Thinking beings have choices.

It is a sort of pardoxial balance that the nature of the Force is not good or evil, but it can be made so by the very life that creates it.

A Jedi uses the Force and is used by it, it is a symbiosis. The Sith do not seek symbiosis, they seek control.

With all that in mind, you(nature) are either in balance with yourself, or in conlfict with nature(yourself).

Jedi have emotion, and humor, love, hate, feelings of annoyance, and so on. But they keep control of those things so as not to override reason.

Let's look at a more down to Earth example instead of all that high and mighty sounding stuff.

Two boxers square off. One gets frustrated, which leads him to get very angry, and he goes on a wild fist swinging rampage against his opponent. The other fighter is 'In the zone', but he is in control of himself.
There have been a number of times where the angry fighter wins, he gets his adrenaline up and knocks his opponent to the canvas. But most of the time this will work against you. You will fade out, get tired, make mistakes, and get beaten by the fighter who stays in control of himself, who will then go on to greater fights, and possibly a title.

 

I agree with most of what you said Vaderslament, however

Jedi claim to follow the will of the force. That means that the force has an active goal that it constantly is striving to achieve. Jedi are the mediums in which chooses to accomplish those goals.

If Jedi are of the 'Light Side' and they follow the will of the force, while the Sith and others who use the 'Dark Side' bend it to their will leaves us with hard evidence that the the force trully is a Lightsided entity.

But as you said, it is a tool, and can be used in either direction, it gives jedi the free agency to choose which they would do.

 

I should say that it is an ongoing circle. There is no Force without life. The will of the Force is created by the life that causes it to exist. The will of the Force is the will of life itself.
There does not need to be an intelligent entity.

But we need a definition for this "will". There are differant explanations for higher intelligence, but I'm going to explain is basically correct.

You have 100 billion neurons in your brain, each neuron has a connection to approx 100 to 10,000 other neurons. we do not know exactly how neurons work how they do, but the high numbers of them plus the high connectivity of them gives rise, or helps give rise, to your ability to reason as a free thinking entity.

Let's say we all hooked up Matrix-style. Through whatever bit of technology in the future you can imagine, we get 100 billion people connected to a world wide brain network (more humans, some A.I. etc).

Now instead of neurons arranged as above, the world has 100 billion minds connected. It could be debated that once such a connection is made that we would form a higher, singular mind. But I doubt it.

The mind might not be as concious as we are. Our neurons are not individuals. But out brains are.

In a GFFA, everything is connected through the Force, and each individual has their own free thoughts, but also contributes there essence to the Force. The Force itself would not be a conglomerated thinking entity, but a connection of all living things.

EDIT: The Force has very little resemblence to Christianity, and is alot more like Buddhism.

 

I agree that the Dark Side (described as anger, fear, agression, etc. by Yoda) is not really a part of the Force itself, but a phenomenon that exists in the soul of an imperfect person who uses the Force.

All of us are subject to certain human weaknesses, temptations, etc., and when a person has great power (political power, military power, the power to use the Force, etc.) those weaknesses also take on great proportions. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"

 

Vader explains everything on his blog.

 

I concur with Darth-Seldon. He always has such insightful things to say. There are some people (idealists) who see things in black and white and others (realists) in grey.

Adolf Hitler saw things in extreme black and white terms. Palpatine, Dooku/Tyranus, and the Sith in general seem to see things that way. It leads to nihilistic evil.

In my opinion, there is no light side of the Force. The Jedi resist the dark side. They resist destuctive emotions. As I read in Matthew Strover's "Revenge of the Sith," the Sith believe in looking inward and using their emotions rather than the Jedi's passive meditation.

I used to see things in black and white, but became more a realist who sees things in grey.

 

Absolutely, the Force is just the Force. It is one huge entity - the Force is everything and everything is the Force. The Force is essentially nature and nature strives to maintain balance - an important precept of the Jedi order, the Force itself is not divided - good and evil are projections placed on it by mortal minds who cannot understand it any other way. The Jedi code doesn't encourage inherent goodness, it encourages action in harmony with the Force to maintain the balance of theings and do what is necessary not what is right or wrong. Jedi are told to know a situation as the Force knows it - dispassionately, "There is no emotion, there is peace." "There is no passion, there is serenity." Also as pure energy that binds the galaxy together the Force cannot be good or evil by nature - it is energy and therefore simply IS. The darkside is the perception projected onto sentients actions when they abuse the Force for their own gain.

 

A good summary of it .. reminds me of Tao

 

I don't think it's that simple. I think the force actively has a direction it wants to go in. And that it is a righteous path indeed.

I also believe there are a ton of relationships between Christianity and the Force.

 

I agree with you, the Force clearly does have a direction. The point I was making is that the Force itself is neither inherently good or bad. Without the Force there can be no life and without life there can be no Force, it therefore stands to reason that when a person acts in harmony with the Force that person will generally act to the benefit of life as a whole. You could say the Force transcends good and evil and cannot be labelled as either - it views the galaxy serenely and dispassionately in a detached way. I would also agree that the Darkside does exist but not as a separate part of the Force that's 'out there somewhere' but within each and every sentient being.

With regards to the Christianity thing, I don't really get it. Apart from the promise "There is no death, there is the Force" which I would agree seems to relate to the promise of eternal life in God's kingdom what else points this way? Everything we've seen suggests the Force is an energy field in a very symbiotic relationship with life (it could be argued the same is true with God) but there things differ - the Force is dispassionate and views things quite analytically I would say working in a broad way to preserve life as a whole and the Balance of the Universe - something which is very important in Jedi lore and the GFFA as a whole. God on the other hand isn't interested in balance at all, God has promised to crush evil and cares about each and every one of us individually - something I don't see anywhere in the Force. The saviour in the GFFA (Anakin) comes to bring Balance to the universe whilst Jesus came to fundamentally unbalance it by saving us all from our sins and blazing the way to Heaven should we decide to take it.

 

I think the force parallels more the power of God and the Holy Ghost more than God per se.

Also from my other thread, if you believe that the Force is inherently good, then it's balance would be when it is free of evil, hence it is conquering evil in the end.

 

I can see where you're coming from with the Force resembling the Holy spirit but many of my points above still stand - the Holy Spirit is still God and therefore IMHO fundamentally different from the Force in a number of ways. Anyway, not dwelling on that too much my point really is that when creating Star Wars George drew on many different mythical and spiritual traditions and used parts of them all over the place mixing and matching so to speak. So you're probably right to say there are some similarities between certain real-world traditions, ideas and even people or political groupings but equally I would say it's wrong to say that for example the Empire clearly represents Nazi Germany - perhaps some inspiration was drawn from this but there is much more to it than that, Star Wars is not a science fantasy representation of some real life things and was never meant to be.

 

I suppose I view the holy spirit from a different view point.

From what I've been taught, the holy spirit is a seperate entity.

But regardless, I still think that there is no darkside of the force. The question has been yet to be deliberated sufficiently.

 

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"

If this is true, would Anakin ever be able to return back to the light, in the end? Would Yoda and Obi-Wan have been able to overcome their own darkness, which contributed to the fall of the Jedi Order?

 

"for all intensive purposes"

Just for your own information (read: in case you have to write a term paper), the phrase is, "for all intents and purposes."

 

I don't see the Force itself as being concerned with Good and Evil, as defined by human morality.

The Force is an energy field, created by all living things. Life creates it, makes it grow. It surrounds and penetrates everything, binding the galaxy together.

VadersLaMent makes an excellent analogy:

You have 100 billion neurons in your brain, each neuron has a connection to approx 100 to 10,000 other neurons. we do not know exactly how neurons work how they do, but the high numbers of them plus the high connectivity of them gives rise, or helps give rise, to your ability to reason as a free thinking entity.

And this line of thinking applies not only to the brain, but to the entire human body (or of any other conscious being). It could be argued that every cell in the body, whether it is a neuron or a cell that comprises the tissue that makes up anothe organ, possesses some form of awareness of its immediate surroundings, at some very basic, primitive level. I am not implying self-awareness or sentience here; but just as there a point where any unit cannot be further divided, there may similarly be a basic level of awareness that is so far below our own that it is imperceptible to us. (My understanding of quantum physics is pretty limited, mostly to what I studied in Grade 12 physics, so please excuse me if I'm off on that). From the idea that every particle in the universe has some gravitational effect, immeasurably tiny, on every other particle in the universe, one could attribute a basic awareness at this same level.

From the point of view of human consciousness, we have a distinct concept of ourselves, both mentally and physically. We know where the boundaries of self end. Our bodies are comprised of billions of individual cells, which make up tissues, which in turn make up organs, and so on, yet we perceive ourselves, and are aware of ourselves, as a single entity. The interaction of living systems that make up our physical and mental selves is imperceptible to us, and thus any consciousness or awareness of any individual element in these systems could also be below our threshold.

The Force itself is not conscious in the terms that we would think of. It is a universal consciousness, a universal awareness, that is the sum of all life in the universe. The Force is not a sentient, free-willed being, but it does have a will of its own. The will of the Force is simple: to nurture life and maintain itself in equilibrium. In nurturing life, the Force enables itself to grow. The Force can been seen as a primal aspect of nature itself, and thus seeks to maintain equilibrium in the same manner. The Force itself has no concept of Good or Evil; there is no "Light Side" of the Force.

Through the Force, one who is attuned to it can sometimes connect with this universal consciousness and reach out to another part of it. One in touch with the Force can reach out and see other places and times, influence the mind of another, or manipulate objects in the physical world.

The Dark Side of the Force is the imbalance created when an individual uses the Force with intent that ultimately upsets the natural order of things. The cycle of life and death is part of the natural order, and is the way of the Force. The use of the Force that results in a disruption, or an attempt to take control of, this cycle creates an imbalance.

The Jedi understand this. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack. The natural order of things, the Force, the cycle of life and death are not rigid and static, being thrown off-course by a minor disruption. There can be no question that the Jedi's use of the Force does influence this on a small scale, but the greater purpose, and the end result of their actions is to keep the natural order in balance, and that is what matters on the ultimate scale. The natural state of life is to continue to grow and expand, but not at the expense of everything around it. The Jedi make use of the Force, and it obeys their comm

 

In a GFFA, everything is connected through the Force, and each individual has their own free thoughts, but also contributes there essence to the Force. The Force itself would not be a conglomerated thinking entity, but a connection of all living things.

EDIT: The Force has very little resemblence to Christianity, and is alot more like Buddhism.

I agree on this point; I don't see a great deal of resemblence to any monotheistic religion. There is a much greater similarity to Buddhism, as well as with Wicca and other Neo-Pagan spirituality.

The Force is obviously working on a much larger scale than Earth-based spirituality, but there are many similarities. An emphasis on balance, and on maintaining the natural order of things. Respect for life in all its forms. The idea that taking more than we give causes an imbalance.

There are as many different interpretations of Wicca as there are practitioners, but one of the central tenets in all of its forms is the immanence of the Goddess. Divinity is not transcendent, but exists in everything of the world. The Force is created by life, and exists within and around everything.

Wiccan rituals are symbolic acts, performed with the intent and purpose of sensing, raising, and manipulating energy. The important part is that the symbols have meaning for the practitioner, and aid in focus and concentration. Is it necessary for a Jedi to wave his hand in order to influence another's mind, or two make a choking gesture to perform the old Force-choke trick? No, but they are symbolic gestures that can aid the Jedi in focusing his mind, as well as tell the audience what he is doing (which is of course, the most likely reason why they do it in the movies).

The Jedi Council is arranged in a circle, and a traditional Wiccan coven or gathering occurs in a circle; the circle is a very important symbol of the natural cycle of life.

Just something interesting that I thought of after my girlfriend introduced me to her spiritual beliefs. I've only explored it a little at this point, but comparisons of the Force to Buddhism brought some of its similarities to Pagan spirituality to my attention as well.

 

That's very good. I should add, due to a science article I read the other day, the research has shown that an individual neuron is capable of pattern recognition.
I only briefly browsed over it in a magazine.