Saga Is there really a way to preserve all major plot twists?

Oftentimes, people will choose to watch the OT before the PT, or sometimes ANH, TESB, the PT, then ROTJ on account of not wanting to spoil the "I am your father" twist
However, this also has its share of ruining PT plot twists, arguably even bigger ones

Plot twists spoiled by watching PT first: Vader is Anakin, Luke and Leia are siblings, the weird green dude is Yoda, etc

Plot twists spoiled by watching the OT first: Anakin falls to the dark side, the prophecy (ostensibly) does not come true, Palpatine is the Sith Lord, the Jedi are wiped out, etc

So is there truly a way to go through SW without spoiling most major twists in your opinion?
Personally I prefer to watch the PT-OT order as I consider the twists in the OT mostly inconsequential in comparison. Vader being Anakin would certainly be shocking to a first time viewer, but the others aren't that shocking, either warranting a "whoa, really?" or "oh, cool" reaction, while the major twists of the PT just leave me in confused silence

 

I don't think so. My thoughts on viewing order aren't just dictated by preserving twists, but I do think it's something you have to make decisions on, because there's no way to avoid it.

 

If twists are your big concern, the best thing I can come up with that preserves some twists and is still accessible is I, IV, II, V, III, VI.

I tried that order during my most recent viewing of the films and loved it, though I wasn't really taking plot twists into account. I just really like the way the alternating films play off of one another thematically. Lucas was right when he said he structured the series like a poem.

 

There's no way to preserve all twists. That's why you when you watch either order, you wind up getting different reactions to what's going on.

 

Well some of this is not hard to figure out even if you haven't seen the OT.
That Palpatine is Sidious, even if you don't see the resemblance in facial features, at the end of TPM, Yoda and Mace talk about the other Sith Lord and the camera pans to Palpatine.
Yes you might overlook it but if you pay attention, it is not hard to spot.

The fate of the Jedi, in AotC we are introduced to a clone army, ordered under very shady circumstances. And we are told that they will obey ANY order without question.
It isn't hard to imagine that this army could turn and kill all the Jedi.

Anakin, in TPM we get some dire warnings about his troubled future and that he is dangerous, that his fear will lead to anger and suffering etc. This isn't a very subtle hint that something bad could happen to this kid. In AotC he basically commits mass murder and displays very reckless and dangerous behavior. The promise he makes to his mothers grave is very worrying. He says that he won't fail again. So if anyone else that he cares about is in danger of dying, Anakin will do whatever it takes to save them. His turn can thus be seen from quite a ways away.

Even stuff that the OT couldn't spoil I figured out anyway, and no I wasn't spoiled except in one instance.

That Shmi would die in tragic circumstances, I figured that out after just one view of TPM.
That the Clones would turn on the Jedi, obvious to me after one view of AotC.
That Dooku is a Sith, well having Christopher Lee play a character called Count Dooku wasn't subtle. And showing him in the trailers with a Red lightsabre made it easy to see.
The one thing that did spoil me was the soundtrack of TPM, really great having a title track spoil a character death.

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As the films are now, no probably not doable.
Was it possible to make a PT that kept most/all surprises/twists of the OT? Yes.
Luke/Leia being siblings is pretty easy. Have Anakin and Padme part ways in Ep II. She is pregnant but he doesn't know it. In ep III she is the wife of Bail and Leia is presented as their daughter.
We might see Luke in a brief shot, as a small kid running on Tatooine.

Vader is Luke's father? Much harder, doable but would stretching things quite a bit.

As for viewing order, I prefer production order. This preserves most of the twists, and it shows the evolution of the SW saga and the overall development of effects, pacing etc.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I knew all the OT plot twists even before watching ANH. The PT twists aren't as ingrained into pop culture.

 

You really only take note of the fact that it focuses on him solely because you already know who he is. A first time viewer who knew nothing about SW would probably have their mind wrapped up in all that just went on, so probably wouldn't think, "Hm, the camera focused on Palpatine when they mentioned another Sith, maybe he's that guy"

I never once got the impression that the clones would end up killing the Jedi before ROTS came to theaters. The mention that they follow any order unquestionably is (ostensibly) just to emphasize their loyal nature as good soldiers.

When the council senses danger in the training of the boy, this could mean anything. The Anakin himself could be placed in danger? That his training could cause danger? That the Sith will be attracted to the Jedi Order because of him? It's very vague
Murdering the Tusken camp is definitely a sign of things to come, but could be seen as a sign that it could be possible, but after the garage scene, you're kind of assuaged by seeing that he expresses a great amount of guilt, nearly crying over what he'd done. You can tell he's disgusted that he let his emotions get the best of him. Likewise, swearing on his mother's grave that he won't let this happen again could also mean that he won't allow himself to lose control again
I believe that claiming Anakin's fall to be predictable is just another result of already knowing that it will happen. We already know all the signs, and so subconsciously we think of them as obvious

There's a person here called PiettsHat who watched the saga I-VI for the first time, and was very surprised to see Anakin fall

 

I think this would be the way to go:
First watch TPM, then AotC. Then watch ANH, then RotS (just edit out the last few minutes where Luke is born), then watch ESB and RotJ.

 

I don't think the prequels actually try all that hard to keep Sidious's identity a secret. As others have pointed out, TPM all but completely gives it away to an attentive viewer. Sure, some people were surprised, but most people weren't.

I think the intention was that, if you paid attention, you could figure out who the Sith Lord was. The tension then comes from being aware of the villain hiding in plain sight, while our heroes are completely in the dark. There was really no way to truly conceal Sidious's identity without completely hiding his appearance from the viewer for two whole movies. So rather than taking away Ian McDiarmid's scenes as Sidious in Episodes I and II, I think Lucas decided to concede the point and just have fun with it.

 

I've heard plenty of people who didn't figure out that Palpatine is Sidious until it's revealed, or at least until the opera scene

 

I think "I am your father" is really hard to preserve except for little kids, simply because it's one of the most ubiquitous film lines in history. The PT's plot twists pertain more to the general direction in which the story goes, and aren't connected to a single "iconic" scene or phrase, therefore I think less people are likely to know about them unless they have intimate knowledge of of the franchise before seeing it, which is unlikely.

 

So have I, at least on these boards. But I think it's clear that that particular plot twist wasn't a priority for Lucas. He really did basically reveal it in Episode I.

Like I said, he was simultaneously leaving it open to young and casual viewers, while also acknowledging the fact that it was already known to anyone who was paying close attention. He left it a mystery, as far as the technical fact of plot progression goes, but revealed it to anyone who paid attention to pure cinematography and behind-the-scenes information. I think it was quite the brilliant compromise.

 

The big twist of the PT is not who Sidious is, but the fact that Anakin turns to the Dark Side. That's something you NEVER see in a fantasy movie/story, and arguably a much more shocking twist than "I am your father" (which is less of a shock for today's standards)

 

Don't agree, I know people that saw the PT first and most if not all of them could figure out that Palpatine was Sidious. We have seen Sidious and Palpatine and he look alike and you see enough to spot it. Then you have the Mace/Yoda talk and they wonder who was destroyed and the camera pans over to Palpatine. It is pretty clear. Yes you can overlook it but if you pay a modicum of attention it isn't hard to notice.

Since we know that Jango was hired by Dooku, a Sith, to be the template. That means that the Sith had a hand in creating the Clone Army. We are also told that they obey ANY order without question.
So an army created by the Sith and that does whatever they are told. Not hard to put two and two together.

Not very vague at all, Anakin admits to missing his mother and they say he is afraid to loose her. He says "what does that have to do with anything?" And Yoda goes into his fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and all that.
In all, they are pretty dire warnings. Obi-Wan warns Qui-Gon that the boy is dangerous, that is pretty specific.
And, as I said, I could figure out that Shmi would die a tragic death and that this would impact Anakin badly.
And no suprise, she did.

What he regarded as his big failiure was that he couldn't save her.

He says in the garage that he wants power over life and death, to stop people from dying.

He says that he failed to save her and that he won't fail again. Pretty clear that he isn't talking about loosing control and killing but rather that he won't let another loved one die. So if Padme were to be put in danger of dying, then Anakin would do anything to stop it. And that is exactly what happens in RotS.

They are not hard to spot, you can miss them but if you pay attention they are pretty clear.

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And I know people that saw the PT first, who were not suprised at all that Anakin fell.

I think that Lucas, when making the PT, he figured that most of the audience had already seen the OT. So he didn't have to go out of his way to hide the suprises that the OT spoils. It wasn't made totally obvious but not hard to spot either.

That Vader is Luke's father is impossible to predict based on ANH and part of ESB, that is what made it such a big twist. No one could see it comming. Now, yes popular culture has spoiled that one.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

All that could just as easily be set-up for Anakin facing his demons and overcoming them. In fact, in most stories, that's exactly what happens. You could look at Luke's arc in the OT and predict that he would fall to the dark side in the end. There's certainly enough foreshadowing for it.

 

Even though the OT spoiled parts of what happened in the PT, we don't how those events happened. Fill in the dots if you will.

 

Which was ultimately why we had those speculating that there had to be a twist somewhere, since it was so obvious.

 

Nowhere near as much in my opinion.
ANH has nothing like the dire warnings about Anakin in TPM. Nor an obvious set up with him leaving his mother and missing her. Consider, TPM shows how much her cares about his mother and that he misses her. And he asks if he will ever see her again. Which is the most likely option?
a) Shmi is never spoken or seen again.
b) Shmi and Anakin do meet again and everything is fine.
c) Something bad happens to Shmi. And this affect Anakin badly.
I would say c).

In ESB Luke is warned about the Dark Side and his troubles dealing with anger and fear.
Yes he leaves against the wishes of Yoda and Obi-Wan. But he faces Vader and does not give in.
He is beaten but chooses death over joining evil. He does not give into hate.
Anakin gives in to hate big time in AotC and kills over and over again.
Pretty much all that Yoda warned him about in TPM, happens in AotC. Fear lead to anger, then to hate and then to suffering.
Also, after the Tusken, scene, Anakin still has trouble controlling himself, he charges Dooku in anger.
He is quick to violence on Geonosis.
At the start of RotS, Anakin murders the helpless Dooku at Palpatine's request.

Lastly, if you see ep I to VI knowing that they are six films. If you assume that Anakin will sort everything out in ep III and overcome all his problems, what will ep IV to VI be about?
If the Sith are destroyed and Anakin overcomes all his problems in ep III, what is left for the next three films?

In a story arc, the midpoint is often when things go badly for the protagonists.
If we see ESB as the midpoint of the OT, things end rather badly.
So RotS would then be the midpoint of the SW saga. So a happy ending is unlikely.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Tell me a fantasy story in which the main hero is burned alive and literally turned into a monster/machine (who becomes the main bad guy in the next few movies) and contributes to the death of the main leading female. I honestly don't know of any other story.

 

"Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him."
"That's what I'm afraid of"

Knowing everything that Anakin did, and that Owen and Beru compare Luke strongly to his father could immediately lead to some concern

 

There's always the "Godfather II" way of viewing:
1. Episode 1 - Anakin and Obi-Wan meet, Anakin begins Jedi Training. We meet some Darths - Maul and Sidious. Anakin blows up Trade Federation control ship.
2. Episode 4 - Luke and Obi-Wan - Luke's dad was betrayed by Darth Vader, a pupil of Obi-Wan. Vader kills Obi-Wan. Luke blows up Death Star. (End of Ep 1 and 4 are parallel shots)
3. Episode 2 - A new Darth - Darth Tyranus. Anakin has vision of loved ones in distress... rushes out to save against protest. Loses arm.
4. Episode 5 - Luke has vision of loved ones in distress... rushes out to save against protest. Loses hand. "No. I am your father." "No. There is another." (End of Ep 2 and 5 are parallel shots)
5. Episode 3 - Anakin chooses Palpatine over Mace. becomes Vader. Wookie battle! Luke is born, and then ... Leia. Twins! Surprise!
6. Episode 6 - Luke learns about Leia. Luke chooses Light Side over Dark. Vader chooses Luke over Palpatine. Ewok Battle! Anakin Ghost!

 

Since the question was which to see first, OT or PT, if you see the OT first, you don't know anything about Anakin. Only that he is dead.
So the comparison is TPM first, pretty dire warnings about Anakin.
ANH first, nothing much about Luke. Owen's worry seemed to be that Anakin left to become a Jedi, got himself killed and he didn't want that to happen to Luke.

Also I highly doubt that Owen and Beru knows that Anakin is Vader. How would they know that? Only if Obi-Wan told them and why would he do that? Secrecy was crucial to him so why risk either of them telling Luke something?

@oierem

Is Anakin really the main hero?
In TPM he isn't the main character or main protagonist, that would be Qui-Gon.
In AotC, when he has started down the dark path, he is maybe co-main character together with Obi-Wan.
Only in RotS can I see Anakin be the main character but that films is about how he finally turns.

The OT is Luke's story in all three films, in the PT Anakin is important yes but it isn't as focused on him as the OT is on Luke.

If you want stories where good guys turn bad then I can give you Babylon 5, where Londo, who is on the good side, crosses over and does some very dark things. Then he finally redeems himself.
In Smallville we follow Clark and Lex's friendship, how it groaws and eventually turns bad. Lex isn't all good at the start but we can see his good qualities.
One can look at magneto in X-Men first class or Harvey Dent (Two Face) in Batman, comics and film. He is a good guy but his face gets burned and he turns evil.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Anakin is the one who was destined to bring balance to the Force, so that makes him the hero of Episodes I-VI, but he also becomes a villain. And the OT is Luke's story, but it is also Han's story as well as Leia's. There is no singular lead character within each trilogy, but there is one character who is in the two trilogies that Lucas made, whose life is shown from the time he is a boy to the moment of his death and redemption.

 

I've always liked the 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6 order for this reason among others.

This is especially true if you've watched the prequels before seeing RotJ. There are so many parallels between Anakin in RotS and Luke in RotJ that it's much easier to believe in Yoda's warnings to Luke.

 

I would say the opposite, if you watch the PT first then Luke's potential to turn is lessened, not heightened.
Let me explain, in the PT you see nice kid Anakin Skywalker get seduced by evil and turn to the dark side and betray everyone. Now in the OT we will see nice young man Luke Skywalker get seduced by evil, turn to the dark side and betray everyone?
What would be the point? The father failed and now we will watch the son fail as well?
Well that was depressingly horrible, thank you.

No, rather we see the father face a situation and fail and now the son faces a similar situation but triumphs where his father did not. I don't deny that there are mirrors between the PT and OT. But if those mirrors would just show the exact same story of Skywalkers turning bad. It would be less mirroring and more copying in my view.

In many stories we have situations where a father or ancestor have failed to do something and now the son or decedents sets out to face the same problem but instead manages to overcome it.

Also, I would argue that watching the PT first in some ways hints that Anakin will redeem himself.
Why would we spend that much time of showing that he was a good person, how and why he got consumed by his fear and anger. Why have a significant character say with her last breath "There is still good in him."?
Imagine an OT that ended with Vader dying as an unrepentant bad guy. That would make Padme look very bad. She had faith in him but she was totally wrong, Anakin was pure evil and not redeemable in any way. And all the work the PT had done to show that he wasn't all bad would also just be "If you turn, you are forever doomed."

If you watch the OT first, sure the odds that Luke will turn and become evil isn't very high. The story isn't structured that way. He faces a challenge yes and is close to turning but overcomes it.

In closing, I think it would have been possible to make and OT that ended with Vader dying still evil. And have a PT that preceded it. But I think that such a PT and OT would have been structured a bit differently than they are now.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor