Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Yes or no.

    Believe or not, I think yes.
  2. Shedao15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    I think it was just to chew out the Cardinals. The real policies are going to come from Bishop Walton George and the National Conference of Catholic Bishops.
  3. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Couldn't this go in the Catholicism thread?
  4. Garli Pesan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    I think it's horrifying when it's head line news that the church denounces child molesters. It should be a given. It didn't accomplish anything that shouldn't have been done 100 years ago.
  5. No blasters! Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    Change? I'll be shocked if real and substantial change comes out of this.

    Evidence of this? The fact that Law is still around. If covering up child molestation (a crime) and shuttling child molesters around to molest more children (more crimes) isn't enough to get you fired from the frikken priesthood then nothing will.

    He needs to be looking at prison time, if you asked me. (And I know you haven't, but still...)

    At any rate, I think the Pope is talking about the power of God and the church to "convert" the "sinful". Sounds like more of the same tired excuses for protecting criminals.
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

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    If covering up child molestation (a crime) and shuttling child molesters around to molest more children (more crimes) isn't enough to get you fired from the frikken priesthood then nothing will.

    Did you know that the bishops at that time largely followed the prevailing wisdom of psychologists at that time? The only real mistake, based on the information they had, was to not inform others about what was going on.

    The priesthood is not something you get "fired from." You can be removed from a parish, but only in the most extreme cases are priests laicized (removed from the office of the priesthood).

    At any rate, I think the Pope is talking about the power of God and the church to "convert" the "sinful". Sounds like more of the same tired excuses for protecting criminals.

    He hasn't been protecting any criminals. He was largely removed from the situation until recently (and that goes back for years). I do believe he should have been remore involved, but such is how things have been. He's taking a more active role now and being very strong in his position.
  7. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 13, 2000
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    If they really want to be celebate, they should become euneuchs (sp.).
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

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    Nov 6, 2001
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    I'm sorry, Wylding. This is one case were spelling literally keeps me from understanding. Could you try to clarify?
  9. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 13, 2000
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    You know...castrated.
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

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    That's not necessary for celibacy.
  11. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    It is supposed to curb all sexual desires though. Especially if done at an early age. If little Jimmy wants to be a Catholic Priest...snip snip.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    Um, no.

    That's not required for celibacy. It's not something that's uncontrollable.
  13. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    No, it's not required now, but it should be.
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
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    I didn't say for now. I said it's not required for celibacy at all. Ever.

    People can control themselves.
  15. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    Hmm, that's not what I'm seeing in the news regarding the priests. Some of them seem to have sexual appetites and deviant ones at that.

    Snip snip.
  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Hmm, that's not what I'm seeing in the news regarding the priests. Some of them seem to have sexual appetites and deviant ones at that

    The "deviant" ones have a psychological condition that causes these "deviant" appetites. They'd have these "deviant" appetites regardless of what profession they were in.
  17. Lordban Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
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    Too true. Their obligations exacerbate their twisted urges and have them more easily become active child molesters (they have nothing to compensate). But their urges would still exist if they could ocmpensate them in a more normal way, and some of them would just as easily be incestuous fathers or uncles as they are priests now.
  18. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    The "deviant" ones have a psychological condition that causes these "deviant" appetites.

    So you admit they have appetites. Now we're getting somewhere.

    They'd have these "deviant" appetites regardless of what profession they were in.

    Here is where you're wrong. Pedophilia in the priesthood is significantly higher statistically speaking than in the laity. They are not the same rate of incidence. Therefore, I posit that something about the priesthood itself is driving these men to do the things they do.

    Even if you don't agree that the incidence rate is higher you can't override millions of years of evolution in a few short years. The sexual drive is one of the most powerful drives in a human. These men are simply taking advantage of those that are easily manipulated into silence in order to satiate that drive.

    Snip snip.
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Here is where you're wrong. Pedophilia in the priesthood is significantly higher statistically speaking than in the laity. They are not the same rate of incidence. Therefore, I posit that something about the priesthood itself is driving these men to do the things they do.

    No, I am not wrong. Psychology is firmly in my corner regarding this. The rate of pedophelia is not higher. In actuality, pedophelia is more common in married life than it is in the priesthood.

    Even if you don't agree that the incidence rate is higher you can't override millions of years of evolution in a few short years. The sexual drive is one of the most powerful drives in a human. These men are simply taking advantage of those that are easily manipulated into silence in order to satiate that drive.

    No. The people who have done this are psychologically ill. Those who do not have this are, by and large, celibate. There are those who go off and have sexual relations (be it men or women), but it isn't as much, and is a completely different story. As far as pedophelia goes, the priesthood is not responsible for the problems. The condition is.

    I would turn your attention to Darth Loreley's post from March 25: According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, pedophilia is a psychological disorder, "a distinct sexual preference for pre-pubescent children." Being married or celibate has no bearing on the attraction these men have for children. They are sick - and the sickness is not caused by celibacy. Many pedophiles are married.

    It is not something that the priesthood causes.
  20. Lordban Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
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    Okay, if the theory isn't enough practically it's over 95% of priest who NEVER GIVE IN TO SUCH URGES OR EVEN FEEL THE NEED FOR THEM.
    The deeds of the few in no way justify the segregation of the many.
  21. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 13, 2000
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    Being married or celibate has no bearing on the attraction these men have for children. They are sick - and the sickness is not caused by celibacy. Many pedophiles are married.

    This is part of his post and isn't in the DSM IVr. I should know, I have a degree in psychology. Besides, we aren't debating that it's an illness. Don't try and take this off track. I agree it's an illness.

    The priesthood exacerbates this "condition" either way you look at it. It gives them the power to keep it all secret, it gives them the means (young acolytes wanting to please the priests--not in that way), and it stifles all sexuality.

    I don't see how you can say that it has nothing to do with it. The priesthood has everything to do with it.


    Evolution is in my corner...

    Snip snip.
  22. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    It won't solve anything. The Church needs to make fundamental changes to the way it does business. It needs to allow its priests to marry and it needs to lift its encyclical ban on the use of contraceptives.
  23. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    Exactly.

    Edit: And if they want to remain "celebate," then snip snip.
  24. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    This is part of his post and isn't in the DSM IVr. I should know, I have a degree in psychology. Besides, we aren't debating that it's an illness. Don't try and take this off track.

    I'm not taking anything off track. And it's a she, not a he.

    The priesthood exacerbates this "condition" either way you look at it. It gives them the power to keep it all secret, it gives them the means (young acolytes wanting to please the priests--not in that way), and it stifles all sexuality.

    No, it does not exacerbate the condition. People with this condition would have similar problems in a variety of professions. The priesthood is no more or less problematic. It has its share of problems, but it does not increase them.

    I suggest you have a glance at this story: Pedophilia

    That explains pedophilia rather well, and you'll notice the last couple of pages are notes on pedophiles from several different professions that are not the priesthood.

  25. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    I'm not taking anything off track. I'm using medical evidence, which you appear to be denying, as support for my views. And it's a she, not a he.

    Damn straight. Those last two sentences aren't in the DSM IVr. And it isn't medical evidence...it's a psychological reference used to make differential psychological diagnoses.

    No, it does not exacerbate the condition. People with this condition would have similar problems in a variety of professions. The priesthood is no more or less problematic. It has its share of problems, but it does not increase them.

    Sweet lord you're blind to the whole thing aren't you? This probably just hits too close to home for most Catholics to make an informed and rational decision on. Oh well, it's a criminal matter and I for one am glad that it will be settled in the courts. I hope these priests fry.

    I suggest you have a glace at this story: Pedophilia

    That explains pedophilia rather well, and you'll notice the last couple of pages are notes on pedophiles from several different professions that are not the priesthood.


    Once again, I do not deny that it exists outside the priesthood. I posit that the priesthood is the problem. You and I will have to just agree to disagree before this gets out of hand...

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