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Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Yes or no.

    Believe or not, I think yes.
     
  2. Shedao15

    Shedao15 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 10, 2001
    I think it was just to chew out the Cardinals. The real policies are going to come from Bishop Walton George and the National Conference of Catholic Bishops.
     
  3. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Couldn't this go in the Catholicism thread?
     
  4. Garli Pesan

    Garli Pesan Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 13, 2000
    I think it's horrifying when it's head line news that the church denounces child molesters. It should be a given. It didn't accomplish anything that shouldn't have been done 100 years ago.
     
  5. No blasters!

    No blasters! Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Change? I'll be shocked if real and substantial change comes out of this.

    Evidence of this? The fact that Law is still around. If covering up child molestation (a crime) and shuttling child molesters around to molest more children (more crimes) isn't enough to get you fired from the frikken priesthood then nothing will.

    He needs to be looking at prison time, if you asked me. (And I know you haven't, but still...)

    At any rate, I think the Pope is talking about the power of God and the church to "convert" the "sinful". Sounds like more of the same tired excuses for protecting criminals.
     
  6. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    If covering up child molestation (a crime) and shuttling child molesters around to molest more children (more crimes) isn't enough to get you fired from the frikken priesthood then nothing will.

    Did you know that the bishops at that time largely followed the prevailing wisdom of psychologists at that time? The only real mistake, based on the information they had, was to not inform others about what was going on.

    The priesthood is not something you get "fired from." You can be removed from a parish, but only in the most extreme cases are priests laicized (removed from the office of the priesthood).

    At any rate, I think the Pope is talking about the power of God and the church to "convert" the "sinful". Sounds like more of the same tired excuses for protecting criminals.

    He hasn't been protecting any criminals. He was largely removed from the situation until recently (and that goes back for years). I do believe he should have been remore involved, but such is how things have been. He's taking a more active role now and being very strong in his position.
     
  7. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    If they really want to be celebate, they should become euneuchs (sp.).
     
  8. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    I'm sorry, Wylding. This is one case were spelling literally keeps me from understanding. Could you try to clarify?
     
  9. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    You know...castrated.
     
  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    That's not necessary for celibacy.
     
  11. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    It is supposed to curb all sexual desires though. Especially if done at an early age. If little Jimmy wants to be a Catholic Priest...snip snip.
     
  12. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Um, no.

    That's not required for celibacy. It's not something that's uncontrollable.
     
  13. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    No, it's not required now, but it should be.
     
  14. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    I didn't say for now. I said it's not required for celibacy at all. Ever.

    People can control themselves.
     
  15. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Hmm, that's not what I'm seeing in the news regarding the priests. Some of them seem to have sexual appetites and deviant ones at that.

    Snip snip.
     
  16. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Hmm, that's not what I'm seeing in the news regarding the priests. Some of them seem to have sexual appetites and deviant ones at that

    The "deviant" ones have a psychological condition that causes these "deviant" appetites. They'd have these "deviant" appetites regardless of what profession they were in.
     
  17. Lordban

    Lordban Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 9, 2000
    Too true. Their obligations exacerbate their twisted urges and have them more easily become active child molesters (they have nothing to compensate). But their urges would still exist if they could ocmpensate them in a more normal way, and some of them would just as easily be incestuous fathers or uncles as they are priests now.
     
  18. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    The "deviant" ones have a psychological condition that causes these "deviant" appetites.

    So you admit they have appetites. Now we're getting somewhere.

    They'd have these "deviant" appetites regardless of what profession they were in.

    Here is where you're wrong. Pedophilia in the priesthood is significantly higher statistically speaking than in the laity. They are not the same rate of incidence. Therefore, I posit that something about the priesthood itself is driving these men to do the things they do.

    Even if you don't agree that the incidence rate is higher you can't override millions of years of evolution in a few short years. The sexual drive is one of the most powerful drives in a human. These men are simply taking advantage of those that are easily manipulated into silence in order to satiate that drive.

    Snip snip.
     
  19. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Here is where you're wrong. Pedophilia in the priesthood is significantly higher statistically speaking than in the laity. They are not the same rate of incidence. Therefore, I posit that something about the priesthood itself is driving these men to do the things they do.

    No, I am not wrong. Psychology is firmly in my corner regarding this. The rate of pedophelia is not higher. In actuality, pedophelia is more common in married life than it is in the priesthood.

    Even if you don't agree that the incidence rate is higher you can't override millions of years of evolution in a few short years. The sexual drive is one of the most powerful drives in a human. These men are simply taking advantage of those that are easily manipulated into silence in order to satiate that drive.

    No. The people who have done this are psychologically ill. Those who do not have this are, by and large, celibate. There are those who go off and have sexual relations (be it men or women), but it isn't as much, and is a completely different story. As far as pedophelia goes, the priesthood is not responsible for the problems. The condition is.

    I would turn your attention to Darth Loreley's post from March 25: According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, pedophilia is a psychological disorder, "a distinct sexual preference for pre-pubescent children." Being married or celibate has no bearing on the attraction these men have for children. They are sick - and the sickness is not caused by celibacy. Many pedophiles are married.

    It is not something that the priesthood causes.
     
  20. Lordban

    Lordban Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 9, 2000
    Okay, if the theory isn't enough practically it's over 95% of priest who NEVER GIVE IN TO SUCH URGES OR EVEN FEEL THE NEED FOR THEM.
    The deeds of the few in no way justify the segregation of the many.
     
  21. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Being married or celibate has no bearing on the attraction these men have for children. They are sick - and the sickness is not caused by celibacy. Many pedophiles are married.

    This is part of his post and isn't in the DSM IVr. I should know, I have a degree in psychology. Besides, we aren't debating that it's an illness. Don't try and take this off track. I agree it's an illness.

    The priesthood exacerbates this "condition" either way you look at it. It gives them the power to keep it all secret, it gives them the means (young acolytes wanting to please the priests--not in that way), and it stifles all sexuality.

    I don't see how you can say that it has nothing to do with it. The priesthood has everything to do with it.


    Evolution is in my corner...

    Snip snip.
     
  22. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    It won't solve anything. The Church needs to make fundamental changes to the way it does business. It needs to allow its priests to marry and it needs to lift its encyclical ban on the use of contraceptives.
     
  23. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Exactly.

    Edit: And if they want to remain "celebate," then snip snip.
     
  24. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    This is part of his post and isn't in the DSM IVr. I should know, I have a degree in psychology. Besides, we aren't debating that it's an illness. Don't try and take this off track.

    I'm not taking anything off track. And it's a she, not a he.

    The priesthood exacerbates this "condition" either way you look at it. It gives them the power to keep it all secret, it gives them the means (young acolytes wanting to please the priests--not in that way), and it stifles all sexuality.

    No, it does not exacerbate the condition. People with this condition would have similar problems in a variety of professions. The priesthood is no more or less problematic. It has its share of problems, but it does not increase them.

    I suggest you have a glance at this story: [link=http://www.timecanada.com/story.adp?storyid=7&part=1]Pedophilia[/link]

    That explains pedophilia rather well, and you'll notice the last couple of pages are notes on pedophiles from several different professions that are not the priesthood.

     
  25. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    I'm not taking anything off track. I'm using medical evidence, which you appear to be denying, as support for my views. And it's a she, not a he.

    Damn straight. Those last two sentences aren't in the DSM IVr. And it isn't medical evidence...it's a psychological reference used to make differential psychological diagnoses.

    No, it does not exacerbate the condition. People with this condition would have similar problems in a variety of professions. The priesthood is no more or less problematic. It has its share of problems, but it does not increase them.

    Sweet lord you're blind to the whole thing aren't you? This probably just hits too close to home for most Catholics to make an informed and rational decision on. Oh well, it's a criminal matter and I for one am glad that it will be settled in the courts. I hope these priests fry.

    I suggest you have a glace at this story: [link=http://www.timecanada.com/story.adp?storyid=7&part=1]Pedophilia

    That explains pedophilia rather well, and you'll notice the last couple of pages are notes on pedophiles from several different professions that are not the priesthood.


    Once again, I do not deny that it exists outside the priesthood. I posit that the priesthood is the problem. You and I will have to just agree to disagree before this gets out of hand...

     
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