Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
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    No. Medical evidence is contrary to your opinion, and if this goes on long enough, that will be shown rather well.

    Sweet lord you're blind to the whole thing aren't you? This probably just hits too close to home for most Catholics to make an informed and rational decision on. Oh well, it's a criminal matter and I for one am glad that it will be settled in the courts. I hope these priests fry.

    I am not blind to it. I can be objective and see that the priesthood obviously attracts some pedophiles, and that needs to stop through better examination of candidates. At the same time, these priests are sick people, and as such, need treatment, not death. Changing the celibacy requirements would not stop pedophiles from trying to enter the priesthood if they wished, nor stop pedophiles from doing things if they wish. Additionally, it has been shown that there is a significant rate of pedophilia in married life, which would leave the Church in the same predicament: pedophiles in the priesthood that have no business being there. In the end, it is not celibacy or the priesthood that causes the problem(s). It is the condition itself.
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Edit: Now redundant, in light of proceeding post.
  3. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    No. Medical evidence is contrary to your opinion, and if this goes on long enough, that will be shown rather well.

    Get your facts straight. It's not medical evidence. You're argument is from a psychological reference.

    I can be objective and see that the priesthood obviously attracts some pedophiles, and that needs to stop through better examination of candidates.

    Well I'm glad to see that at least we agree on this...

    The rest of it, well it'll play out.

    DSM-IV

    Mental Disorders Overview:

    Introduction:

    Diagnostic Criteria for the most common mental disorders including: description, diagnosis, treatment, and research findings. This list references the diagnostic criteria of mental disorders as desribed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), published by the American Psychiatric Association, Washington D.C., 1994, the main diagnostic reference of Mental Health professionals in the United States of America.


    I don't have the DSM-IVr around, but I bet it hasn't changed all that much. It doesn't say, "hey I'm medical proof!"
  4. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8

    1:
    1. Catholic priests are more likely to be pedophiles than other groups of men.

    This is just plain false. There's absolutely no evidence that priests are more likely to abuse children than are other groups of men. The use and abuse of children as objects for the sexual gratification of adults is epidemic in all classes, professions, religions, and ethnic communities across the globe, as figures on child pornography, incest, and child prostitution make abundantly clear. Pedophilia (the sexual abuse of a prepubescent child) among priests is extremely rare, affecting only 0.3 percent of the entire population of clergy. This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar, Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date, which found that only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a 30-year period was afflicted with pedophilia. In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than 80 priests labeled by the media as "pedophiles" are actually guilty of molesting young children.

    Pedophilia is a particular type of compulsive sexual disorder in which an adult (man or woman) abuses prepubescent children. The vast majority of the clerical sex-abuse scandals now coming to light do not involve pedophilia.

    Rather, they involve ephebophilia -- homosexual attraction to adolescent boys. While the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia, it still amounts to less than 2 percent -- comparable to the rate among married men (Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests).

    In the wake of the current crisis in the Church, other religious denominations and non-religious institutions have admitted to having similar problems with both pedophilia and ephebophilia among the ranks of their clergy. There's no evidence that Catholic prelates are more likely to be pedophiles than Protestant ministers, Jewish leaders, physicians, or any other institution in which adults are in a position of authority and power over children.


    Myth 2:
    2. The celibate state of priests leads to pedophilia.

    Celibacy bears no causal relation to any type of deviant sexual addiction including pedophilia. In fact, married men are just as likely as celibate priests to sexually abuse children (Jenkins, Priests and Pedophilia). In the

    general population, the majority of abusers are regressed heterosexual men who sexually abuse girls. Women are also found to be among those sexual abusers. While it's difficult to obtain accurate statistics on childhood sexual abuse, the characteristic patterns of repeat child sex offenders have been well described. The profiles of child molesters never include normal adults who become erotically attracted to children as a result of abstinence (Fred Berlin, "Compulsive Sexual Behaviors" in Addiction and Compulsion Behaviors [Boston: NCBC, 1998]; Patrick J. Carnes, "Sexual Compulsion: Challenge for Church Leaders" in Addiction and Compulsion; Dale O'Leary, "Homosexuality and Abuse").


    The complete list can be found here: 10 Myths of Priestly Pedophilia

  5. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Your sources for this information are hardly unbiased.

    [face_plain]

    Getting info like this off of a Catholic website is like asking Charles Manson to re-write the laws for murder.

    Sorry, but I don't accept that. Your sources are compromised. Which explains your insane position on this subject.
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Myth 9:
    9. Catholic journalists have ignored the pedophile problem.

    As any reader of Crisis knows, this claim is patently false. The October 2001 cover story featured "The High Price of Priestly Pederasty," an expose on the scandal that wouldn't erupt into the mainstream press for another three months. You can read our full article at: http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2001/index.html.

    And we weren't the only ones who have covered the pedophilia/pederasty problem. Charles Sennot, author of Broken Covenant, Rod Dreher of The National Review, Crisis co-founder Ralph MacInerny, Maggie Gallagher, Dale O'Leary, the Catholic Medical Association, Michael Novak, Peggy Noonan, Bill Donohue, Dr. Richard Cross, Philip Lawler, Alan Keyes, and Msgr. George Kelly have all covered the issue exhaustively.

    Just because the mainstream media have chosen to ignore our work doesn't mean the work hasn't been done.


    Your sources for this information are hardly unbiased.

    And your information and sources are objective and unbiased?




  7. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Sweet lord you're blind to the whole thing aren't you? This probably just hits too close to home for most Catholics to make an informed and rational decision on. Oh well, it's a criminal matter and I for one am glad that it will be settled in the courts. I hope these priests fry.

    You could try to make a case that Boy Scout leaders have a greater chance of being pedophiles (because of some recent headlines) and therefor something about the qualifications to be a Scout Leader makes someone a pedophile. You are assuming a causal relationship where there has been none proven. There has only been shown a statistical correlation between high-profile pedophilia cases and the Catholic priesthood.

    By the same reasoning, I could prove to you that high tides cause full moons. After all, whenever there's a high tide, there's a full moon.

    Kimball Kinnison
  8. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    There is one reason why there are so many pedophiles in the priesthood. Pedophiles recognise that the priesthood is a place where they can gain alot of TRUST! That is the only and SOLE reason. This rubbish about letting priests have sex and handing tehm condoms would solve absolutely nothing. You don't gain a sexual taste for children through lack of sex. Thats rediculous.
  9. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    KnightWriter, that's some great stuff that the Catholic Church has put out there.

    [face_plain]


  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    KnightWriter, that's some great stuff that the Catholic Church has put out there

    As far as I can see, the list I referenced quotes from non-Catholic sources. In addition, the Church did not publish that. It was done by an independent Catholic publication, reprinted from another publication that did a thorough investigation of the priesthood. The majority of references in it are from non-Catholic sources.
  11. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    And yet it's still on a Catholic site. I wonder why that is?
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    And yet it's still on a Catholic site. I wonder why that is?

    Probably to help Catholics counter the myths and misconceptions of pedophilia as it relates to the priesthood.
  13. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    And yet it's still on a Catholic site. I wonder why that is?

    I am a Mormon. Would you expect me to go to an anti-Mormon web site to refute any accusations that you make against me? As a general rule, the people msot involved in a discussion gather supporting evidence. It is much easier to go to a Catholic web site that has already gathered information from a variety of religious and secular sources than it is to have to hunt down the information piece by piece.

    Kimball Kinnison
  14. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Probably to help Catholics counter the myths and misconceptions of pedophilia as it relates to the priesthood.

    Probably to make themselves look better. Probably to give the people sitting in the pews something to read while the priests are off destroying young lives.

    Let's face it. The Catholic church has a history of trying to make this thing go away. Is it so hard for you to believe they would put out misinformation?

    Is it so hard for you to believe that they would care more about their reputation than the lives of those forever changed by evil men hiding behind the priesthood?

    Wake.up.
  15. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Probably to make themselves look better. Probably to give the people sitting in the pews something to read while the priests are off destroying young lives.

    Let's face it. The Catholic church has a history of trying to make this thing go away. Is it so hard for you to believe they would put out misinformation?

    Is it so hard for you to believe that they would care more about their reputation than the lives of those forever changed by evil men hiding behind the priesthood?


    I really don't understand. I've quoted from numerous sources, who have themselves quoted from various secular (and non-secular, as the case may be) sources. None of what I have quoted has been even analyzed, it seems. Rather, it seems that what I am using is being tainted through its association with Catholic views, despite the fact that the sources are largely secular in nature.
  16. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Personally, I don't think it'll do much at all. It makes for good theater though.


    I think it's horrifying when it's head line news that the church denounces child molesters.

    That's exactly how I've felt hearing all the talk about the Pope's "strong" language in saying that pedophilia is a sin and a crime. That's big news? [face_plain] Come on.



    And Law needs to be ousted immediately, and there needs to be a criminal investigation into what he and other members of his leadership did. And that's just a minimum.


    Did you know that the bishops at that time largely followed the prevailing wisdom of psychologists at that time? The only real mistake, based on the information they had, was to not inform others about what was going on.

    Riiiiight.

    In the Geoghan case, which Law has repeatedly claimed to rely on "expert" opinion about when he reassigned him...the first doctor who claimed the priest was fully recovered was a general practioner, not any kind of psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist. The second was a psychiatrist -- who was on record with the state of being accused of sexual molestation against his patients, and settling a lawsuit with one of them. He also had no particular expertise is sexual abuse. I'm sure Law would argue that he didn't know about the docs either, but I'm not sure how that helps him, since his decision needlessly put so many children in harm's way. Not having all the facts is not an excuse.

    And besides, Geoghan was "treated," came back and did it again...how many times does it take before someone is required, simply by human decency, if not religious morals and the public law, to step in before putting him around more kids?

    Oh, and even if Geoghan was miraculously "cured"...how does that suddenly negate the obligation of Law and other church officials to alert the police or DSS for the crimes he already had committed, or already been accused of? He just gets a free pass on what might have previously occurred, because he's better now? How does that work?


    And what about the Shanley case? Law recommended him to run a church guest house frequented by students...in 1997. Was he still so unaware of the truth about child abuse, or still relying on the "prevailing wisdom" from the early to mid 1980s? Five years ago? But, if I recall correctly, Law didn't blame the docs for that one, he blamed "inadequate recordkeeping."


    but only in the most extreme cases are priests laicized (removed from the office of the priesthood).

    I am curious at to how much more "extreme" a situation can get than child rape and molestation. :confused:

  17. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    "Did you know that the bishops at that time largely followed the prevailing wisdom of psychologists at that time?"

    I don't believe psychologists have ever said it's OK for child molesters to continue working with children.
  18. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    So, you say they are from secular sources...but all we have is catholic apologist propoganda.
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
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    No, you're right. I don't know if they've ever said it's been okay to continue working with children. At the same time, it wasn't always realized that it wasn't something curable. The prevailing wisdom at one time was some treatment and sending the priest to a different parish for a new start. Obviously, not a good idea, but not something that was realized at the time.

    That said, I do believe Cardinal Law mishandled things, to say the least. He blatantly lied and covered up.
  20. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    So, you say they are from secular sources...but all we have is catholic apologist propoganda.

    ....This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar, Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date, which found that only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a 30-year period was afflicted with pedophilia.




  21. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    Fact is, it wouldn't be on a Catholic site if it wasn't favorable to the catholic viewpoint.

    snip snip.
  22. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
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    Fact is, it wouldn't be on a Catholic site if it wasn't favorable to the catholic viewpoint.

    Does that change the fact that it's a secular source, and damaging to some ideas about the priesthood and pedophilia?

    The fact that it helps the Catholic point of view (or at least my point of view) shouldn't taint it. Fact is fact.
  23. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
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    You uphold the same facts as the same people who protect these priests.

    I submit to you that these "facts" were probably heavily influenced by catholic propoganda, as were the experiments from which they were derived.

  24. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    At the same time, it wasn't always realized that it wasn't something curable. The prevailing wisdom at one time was some treatment and sending the priest to a different parish for a new start. Obviously, not a good idea, but not something that was realized at the time.


    It was still a crime, wasn't it? Even if you were somehow totally "cured" after the fact? How does the Church come to the "prevailing wisdom" that the best way to deal with accused, repeat criminals (of a particularly heinous crime) is to shuffle them to another parish full of uninformed, unsuspecting potential victims? They just didn't "realize" that it wasn't a "good idea"? It's interesting how a few lawsuits can bring epiphanies.
  25. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

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    Nov 6, 2001
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    I submit to you that these "facts" were probably heavily influenced by catholic propoganda.

    How so? They are quoting from sources that have no seeming association with the Church or its interests.
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