Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    "It's interesting how a few lawsuits can bring epiphanies."

    Too right.
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    It was still a crime, wasn't it? Even if you were somehow totally "cured" after the fact? How does the Church come to the "prevailing wisdom" that the best way to deal with accused, repeat criminals (of a particularly heinous crime) is to shuffle them to another parish full of uninformed, unsuspecting potential victims? They just didn't "realize" that it wasn't a "good idea"? It's interesting how a few lawsuits can bring epiphanies.

    That is true. It was still a crime. I believe the tendency to protect fellow priests is to blame for that. Things should have and must come out into the light. I concede the point, and believe you are right about that.
  3. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Wylding,

    Fact is, it wouldn't be on a Catholic site if it wasn't favorable to the catholic viewpoint.

    So far, you have yet to cite one piece of information (providing sources) in support of your position. Instead, you have made one direct citation to tear down your opponents' arguments. In the face of direct evidence, you have not refuted it, only attacked the medium through which it was presented.

    Would you expect to get an accurate view of how to safely use a gun by going to an anti-gun site? Or by going to the NRA (who, despite their political agenda offers classes in gun safety)? You can claim that the NRA is biased, but that does not change the fact that their courses in gun safety are the best in the US (and possibly the world).

    Would you care to cite your sources for for your claims? If the information is wrong, prove it wrong. Do not attack it because it was gotten off of a Catholic website.

    Kimball Kinnison
  4. Wylding Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    I suspect that the experimentor and the experiment itself are biased in favor of the catholic apologists. Good luck proving something like this at such a late date, but that's my suspicion nonetheless.

    Experiment=Catholic chruch comes out smelling like a rose.

    Real Life="Oh wait...that didn't happen. Let's just move "Father O'leary" to another parish. Oh, no! "Father O'leary" is on the evening news because he molested 14 different children!"
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    I suspect that the experimentor and the experiment itself are biased in favor of the catholic apologists. Good luck proving something like this at such a late date, but that's my suspicion nonetheless.

    Isn't that called heresay in a courtroom? Not trying to be flippant. Just wondering.

    Experiment=Catholic chruch comes out smelling like a rose.

    Real Life="Oh wait...that didn't happen. Let's just move "Father O'leary" to another parish. Oh, no! "Father O'leary" is on the evening news because he molested 14 different children!"


    Is it necessary to be like that?

  6. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I suspect that the experimentor and the experiment itself are biased in favor of the catholic apologists.

    Then the burden of proof is upon you. You are accusing it of being biased, so prove that it is. Do not use your suspicions to prove anything. That is not a logical argument.

    I suspect it was not biased. Prove me wrong.

    Kimball Kinnison
  7. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Things should have and must come out into the light. I concede the point, and believe you are right about that.

    Okay. And that's one of the main reasons why Law should be removed. Immediately. And criminal charges need to be seriously looked into. I still don't buy this utter nonsense about them not knowing at the time about the nature of pedophilia, or about relying on the "doctors" they used, or about the "poor recordkeeping". But even if one accepts all of those excuses, they still have no good legal reason for why they kept silent and didn't go to the cops.


    I believe the tendency to protect fellow priests is to blame that.

    In the end, that's all this comes down to. They were more interested in protecting themselves and each other than in taking even the smallest of actions to ensure that the children in their churches were no longer raped and molested. That is so inexcusable, morally deviant, and criminal that words don't quite do it justice.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Okay. And that's one of the main reasons why Law should be removed. Immediately. And criminal charges need to be seriously looked into. I still don't buy this utter nonsense about them not knowing at the time about the nature of pedophilia, or about relying on the "doctors" they used, or about the "poor recordkeeping". But even if one accepts all of those excuses, they still have no good legal reason for why they kept silent and didn't go to the cops.

    I don't think there's anything worth buying from him. He should resign. He has no moral authority to lead any longer.

    In the end, that's all this comes down to. They were more interested in protecting themselves and each other than in taking even the smallest of actions to ensure that the children in their churches were no longer raped and molested. That is so inexcusable, morally deviant, and criminal that words don't quite do it justice.

    In some of the actual pedophilia cases, I would agree that they put the interests of the priests ahead of children. At the same time, I wouldn't say that was true all the time.
  9. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    At the same time, I wouldn't say that was true all the time.

    I'm not sure what you're referring to here...
  10. Wylding Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Isn't that called heresay in a courtroom? Not trying to be flippant. Just wondering.

    Why yes it is your honor. Let's try to remember where we are...we're on a Star Wars message board. Arguing on the internet. Do you really think that we're changing anything as we do this?

  11. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    I mean that I wouldn't say that in every single case, the priests or bishops put the interests of the priests ahead of children. I know there must have been some cases were justice prevailed, and the priests were removed, and children's interests looked after.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Why yes it is your honor. Let's try to remember where we are...we're on a Star Wars message board. Arguing on the internet. Do you really think that we're changing anything as we do this?

    As I recall, you stated not too long ago that your opinion regarding salvation was actually changed through a discussion in the Senate.

  13. Wylding Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    My personal opinion.
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Do you really think that we're changing anything as we do this?

    I don't know about you, but I've not tried to change the world from the message boards. Instead, I have tried to foster understanding between people. That is why I come here and post. It helps me learn more about others' vies and express my own so that they, too, can learn more.

    Kimball Kinnison
  15. Garli Pesan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    "The priesthood is not something you get "fired from." You can be removed from a parish, but only in the most extreme cases are priests laicized (removed from the office of the priesthood)."

    Extreme circumstances like, oh I don't know, repeaditly molesting children?
  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    A priest can simply be removed from parish life without being reassigned. In that event, they are essentially jobless.

    I don't see the point of removing a priest from his vows and office of the priesthood if they recognize they have a problem, pay for what they have done, and attempt to get treatment. If they pay for what they've done, and get sufficient treatment, then they can be given a job that doesn't involve children at all.

    Is that too much? I'm genuinely asking.
  17. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    The point was not what they *should* be doing, but rather, a comment on what they've *been* doing.
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    The point was not what they *should* be doing, but rather, a comment on what they've *been* doing.

    Could you clarify?
  19. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    According to Wylding's logic, if ya let a priest who may be a pedophile have sex with women, he will no longer have an interest in children.

    Suuuuuuuuuuuurrrreeeeeee!!!
  20. No blasters! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    You responded earlier in the thread about how they're not "fired". (Which I know wasn't the technical term. On the other hand, I know there *are* means of removing clergy from not only their positions, but from the Church altogether. Yes?)

    At any rate, yes I agree that removal, treatment, criminal penalties and a future without access to any children is enough to allow a person to have a job. I'm certainly not advocating that convicted child molesters never have another job again for the rest of their lives...

    My earlier comment though (about firing priests) was made based upon the Church's past behaviour. Not what should be.

    Does that clarify my statement?

  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    I think so.

    I think I'm a little slow at the moment, so forgive me if I misunderstand something.

    :).
  22. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    I know there must have been some cases were justice prevailed, and the priests were removed, and children's interests looked after.

    I'd think so, especially the lower in the hierarchy you get (I'm sure individual priests, pastors, nuns, and certain bishops would want to protect their congregation). But if Law and his deputies can ignore the Shanleys and the Geoghans something tells me there aren't many cases that would really register on their radar screens for doing the right thing.

  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Yes, I can agree with that. For bishops like Law, their interests were/are mostly in the wrong place, if not entirely. One can only hope that there aren't too many like him in that regard.
  24. Darth Rayder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    Wylding:

    The problem with your "snip-snip" idea, is that celibacy is meant to be a sacrifice. If castration removes sexual desire, it removes the sacrifice element of celibacy, and thus renders the idea moot. So snipping anyone who wants to become a priest is clearly not an option. Priests aren't celibate just for the heck of it.
  25. DarthLoreley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 1
    Here we go again...

    Cardinal Law should definitely be removed for his (non)handling of the Shanleys and Geoghans of his archdiocese. His actions (or lack thereof) bordered on criminal themselves, and exposed many more innocents to these predators. And the Vatican should come down very hard on these so-called leaders. Unfortunately, many officials in Rome believe this to be an American problem, caused by our "litigious and licentious" society.

    Wylding, please show me some evidence, besides your own personal opinion, that celibacy causes a man to become a child molester. The Catholic priesthood has no higher rate of pedophilia and sex abuse than Protestant ministries. And you conveniently ignore the 98+% of compassionate, hard-working priests out there, who make huge sacrifices in their personal lives to answer the call of God.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.