Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Shedao15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    This is a very intresting debate between all of you. I would just like to add a little snippet of information for all of you guys benifit.

    Once you are ordained a priest you cannot be removed from the priesthood unless you so choose. You can be defrocked, which basicly keeps you from active ministry. However, you cannot be removed from the priesthood. The reason being that the priesthood is a sacrament and sacraments are permanent unless the celebrant cancles out such partcipation. If a priest wishes to be "laicized" meaning he is removed from his vows and his priesthood, it can only happen if he so asks for it. If he does not he is a priest for ever in the line of Melchiezadek (as the saying goes). The same goes for a Bishop (with reference to Archbishop Bernard Cardinal Law). Not even the Pope has the authority to "fire" a Bishop or Archbishop (btw: Archbishop is a ceremonial title and is not any higher in power than a Bishop) The Holy Father can reassign them, but cannot "fire" them. So Archbishop Cardinal Law cannot be fired he must ask for resignation, if he does not the Boston Archdiocese still has to look up to Archbishop Cardinal Law.
  2. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    Probably not. It would be nice if they allowed priests to marry; I think that could be a small help.
  3. Darth Rayder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    Allowing priests to marry would change NOTHING.
  4. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Oh, it would change things. As it pertains to this issue, though? Not a bit, I think.
  5. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    1) The whole point of celibacy (now -- I'm not even getting into the original reason for celibacy) is as a form of self-control/self-denial. If you "snip snip" as Wylding put it 80000 times (do you have any idea how annoying that was? I mean -- damn, you got your point across the first 15 times! We know what you think!) then you get rid of the whole "self control" concept.

    2) Pedophilia is pedophilia. Marrying will NOT do anything about it. As an Episcopalian who had a married priest --molest is too strong, but it was more than simply being hit on -- and several other junior high girls several times (though he was kicked out of the priesthood -- a difference between the Catholic and Protestant church) I can tell you that if a guy's got a thing for the kids, he's gonna have a thing for the kids whether he's married or not. One theory is that these pedophiles go into the priesthood because they think if they try to serve God he will "take their illness away." Which, of course, it usually doesn't go away.

    3) As I said before, I've seen a protestant minister be kicked out of the priesthood for attempting to be sexual with prepubescant kids. I really don't see why the Catholic church isn't kicking out their priests too. KnightWriter mentioned that priests are rarely kicked out -- well, in my opinion, that should change and the church should report them and get them into therapy FAST.




    (In case anyone's wondering -- this priest that tried to do stuff to us, well, apparently we're alot more loud mouthed than Catholic kids because after the first time he tried something extreme -- he kind of built up so at first you weren't sure if he was being paternal or sexual -- all the junior high acolytes were up in arms and telling their parents and that guy was OUTTA THERE. I guess I just can't keep my mouth closed, but I've never understood why a child being abused didn't just say "Hey, mom -- this priest has been touching me and it's really gross." Heaven knows I had no problem telling any adult that would listen that this guy was a SICK-O.)
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    KnightWriter mentioned that priests are rarely kicked out -- well, in my opinion, that should change and the church should report them and get them into therapy FAST.

    In the event they are guilty, they are removed from their positions and handed over to the law. That is how it will be from now on, and how it has been in recent years (for the most part, with some notable exceptions).
  7. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Wasn't this same discussion taking place at some time in the not too distant past in the Catholicism thread or is there perhaps another thread on this topic already?

    Just curious.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    The closest thread to this one was this:

    Thread

    Originally, I think it was better suited for the original Catholicism thread, but with the turn it took, I'm not sure.

  9. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Having read through the bulk of the thread, I am going to issue a general warning here. There's a lot of emotion running through here from people on both sides. I want to see you folks play nice or you get timeouts and post deletions and all that really really fun stuff. ;)
  10. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
  11. Darth Rayder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    KnightWriter is correct.. it would change things, but not regarding this issue...and it wouldn't change them for the better.

    I notice that people who are demanding an end to celibacy are either on the far left of the Church's membership, or are not even Catholic at all. How quick some people are to tear down our traditions. :( And the logic used is rather shady. The 2 arguments I've heard is that ending celibacy either to protect children (a noble goal, but there's no scientific evidence that celibacy causes an increase in molestations), or that the Church needs to "get with the times."

    Funny how its socially acceptable to bash Catholic traditions, but not those of other religions. Many religions have ancient traditions that, to the secular world, seem to make little sense. (Such as some religions' refusal to eat pork products, for example). Those who would attack THOSE traditions are seen as intolerant. But telling Catholics to change their ways because society has changed (the argument that celibacy is outdated), they are simply part of the status quo. This is not only sad, but in fact, rather frightening for conservative Catholics who see traditions such as priestly celibacy as a KEY part of the Church.
  12. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I notice that people who are demanding an end to celibacy are either on the far left of the Church's membership, or are not even Catholic at all. How quick some people are to tear down our traditions.

    Well, IANAC (I am not a Catholic), but I have seen this in other areas as well. For example, women in my church do not hold the priesthood either and because of this you will occasionally find claims that we "repress" women. (If anyone would care to make that claim, I would love to introduce you to any number of Mormon women who are most emphatically not repressed. They will quickly disabuse you of the notion.) The people who make this claim are usually not even members of the church, yet they demand that we change our beliefs to suit them?

    Whatever happened to the First Amendment protecting freedom of religion? As long as I am not interfering with anyone else's rights, I should not have to modify my actions or beliefs to suit anyone else. What gives anyone outside any church the right to force changes upon that church?

    Many religions have ancient traditions that, to the secular world, seem to make little sense.

    I wonder what the reaction would be if Jews started following the law of sacrifice again (sacrificing various animals for different ceremonies). How would that compare to if they had never stopped? Animal rights activists would be up in arms.

    Kimball Kinnison
  13. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Not allowing female priests to be women is a sign of man's own incompetence, not god's.

    Furthermore, the tradition of celibacy cannot be considered as legitemate a tradition as all of you make it out to be, because everyone knows the Catholic Church only made the rule for the money. Yes, money and land. It had nothing to do with God, because before that priests were allowed to wed, and Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with it. But then the Church started turning into something that resembled the Galactic Empire, and there were TONS and TONS of stupid decisions and evil abuses committed by many members of the Church, including the Pope.

    Priests cannot marry because the Church wanted to be able to keep Church lands after a priest had died, rather than that land going to his son, who may or may not be a priest. I'm sorry, it's a little hard to respect a rule that was created without any sort of religious motivation, and rather was created during a darker period of the church when corruption was rampant.

    That's the whole problem here with this convention. Why has it taken SO SO long for the Catholic Church to take a stance on molestation by Priests? Yes, the media does blow it up to make it seem like every priest is a potential pedophile, which of course is just stupid. But why has the church until now been satisfied to cover up and move priests around to new towns WHERE UNSUSPECTING NEW CHILDREN get molested by the dirty priests. I don't blame the church for pedophelia, or even the stupid law of celibacy, but I do blame them for protecting some of these sick molesters and providing them with the opportunity to DO IT AGAIN.

    Well, hopefully the pope told all them clergymen "Honostly, all of you must believe in god. If any of you do this evil act, you will go to hell. No purgatory and no waiting, straight to hell. God told me so."
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Not allowing female priests to be women is a sign of man's own incompetence, not god's.

    No, it doesn't have anything to do with incomptence. It has to do with following Scripture and the example Christ set.

    The celibacy issue is irrelevant to this issue. Completely.

    But why has the church until now been satisfied to cover up and move priests around to new towns WHERE UNSUSPECTING NEW CHILDREN get molested by the dirty priests.

    This is not happening any longer, and has not happened for some time now.

    Well, hopefully the pope told all them clergymen "Honostly, all of you must believe in god. If any of you do this evil act, you will go to hell. No purgatory and no waiting, straight to hell. God told me so."

    That's not how it works.
  15. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Obi-Wan McCartney, this must be maybe the second time we've ever agreed on anything.


    I don't blame the church for pedophelia, or even the stupid law of celibacy, but I do blame them for protecting some of these sick molesters and providing them with the opportunity to DO IT AGAIN.

    Exactly. And I pretty much agree with everything else you said too.



    This is not happening any longer, and has not happened for some time now.

    Just curious...what makes you confident of that? (And how long is "some time"?)
  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Just curious...what makes you confident of that? (And how long is "some time"?)

    I'd say "some time" is about 5-10 years now, particularly in dioceses like my own, which has a hard-line policy against any such problems. I'm confident because it's the law, and I've read of priests being handed over in that time frame, and I haven't heard of any recent cases. A lot from the past, but none in recent times.
  17. Shedao15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    Obi-Wan Celibacy was intituted because when priests were married the were not allowed to have sex the day before Mass. When the church instituted the custom that priests must say Mass daily. The were forced to give up their marriges, because they could no longer have sex. There are some spiritual reasons as well.
  18. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Well, I obviously can't speak to your diocese, but I will say that part of the great outrage at Cardinal Law here in Boston is that some of this took place fairly recently, after he should have known better (I'd say he should have known better all along, but...), and after he supposedly installed major reforms in Boston in 1993, after the first big pedophile case broke. For instance, records show he was still recommending Shanley for jobs without divulging his problems as late as 1997. So for him, though it should be ten years (if you give him a pass up until the "reforms") it's maybe five, and who knows what else is in the files that haven't been subpeonaed yet.

    I don't trust Law, or anyone else who has behaved similarly in a position of power in the Church. They can't just say that they're not doing it now...there's no evidence of that, and no reason to believe what they say.


    And, to the original question of this thread...the meeting essentiallly confirmed that child sex abuse is a crime and a sin, and suggested that a process to defrock priests that are "notorious and guilty of the serial, predatory sexual abuse of minors." I wasn't expecting much from this meeting, but color me unimpressed anyway. How many children it takes before one becomes "serial" will now be the main question I suppose. [face_plain]
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Well, I think we're speaking from very different perspectives here. The diocese of Phoenix is very tough on these kinds of things, and also has an extremely difficult process for becoming a priest within the diocese (which pays dividends later). I trust the people here, with Bishop O'Brien at the top of that list. He's done everything necessary to protect people here and keep himself aligned with the people. Of course, having been here for seemingly forever probably helps with that.

    In Law's case, he certainly has brought all the suspicion on himself. I can understand the suspicion you have. He deserves a criminal investigation for his (mis)handling of the problems.

    I'm not saying that things have never happened in recent times, but I would say that things have gotten much better *overall* in the past 5-10 years throughout the country, and that it is only going to continue to get better. Anything in the future would be utterly disasterous. My current worry is that there will be witch hunts and priests being falsely accused by someone with an axe to grind. Cardinals Mahoney and Cardinal Bernardin were each falsely accused (Bernardin in 1995), and the accusations were found to be totally without merit. Fortunately, it's harder to arbitrarily remove a cardinal than it is a priest. That's what I fear. We must protect children, but like children, there are innocent priests out there as well who are helping people, and I fear anyone being hurt. So far as my opinion goes, I don't believe there has been anyone who has behaved quite so badly as Cardinal Law. Now now, and not in recent memory.

    I for one wasn't too pleased with the meeting, and the news conference. They should have done more, and taken a more aggressive stance. As it was, it was often a matter of word games and English, and that's no solution at all.
  20. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    Actually, Shendao (sp? sorry) -- McCartney is correct. Priests were forbidden to marry because the church had to support all the progeny of the priests, and it was running through their budget. And it also had something to do with sons dividing up land and dividing and dividing...anyway, actually, it had nothing to do with Paul and his call for celibacy. It WAS money and land.


    And I think it's stupid that women can't be priests. People try to pull that the bible says that because of Paul saying "women be quiet and listen to your husbands" -- what he was referring to was the women who would sit in the back of church and gossip instead of paying attention. It had nothing to do with not allowing leadership in the church.

    And Jesus set no precedent. He's one of the few men in that era that treated men and women with equal respect. IMHO, the reason he didn't have female disciples is because it simply would have looked like he had a harem following him aroundm, and then when he's up on the mountain preaching about the evils of lust, everyone would be going "Yeah, yeah, you with your 4 women..." even though he WOULDN'T have been doing anything with them, no one would have believed that. Look at how he treats the adultrous Samaritan woman, or the bleeding woman. Or Mary and Martha. He treats them with no less respect than the men he talks to.
  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think if Christ had wanted a female to be one of the 12, he would have done so, regardless of how it looked. He certainly did plenty of other things that flew in the face of the standards of that time.
  22. Darth Rayder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    Kimball Kinnison, you're absolutely right...activists WOULD be up in arms...and its the same thing that's happening here... "activists" (I use the term loosely, but I guess it applies) OUTSIDE the Church are pushing for changes that very few within the Church want.
  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think the term "relative few" is better than few, because there are some Catholics who would like to see some things changed. However, their reasoning is usually no different than anyone else's.
  24. Shedao15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    Ariana: Many people get this idea in there heads that because women cannot be priests that they are discriminated against. No it is merley a seprate but equal position. Men can't be Nuns but I don't see anyone up in arms about that one. they can't have kids either does that mean God hates men? No.

    The restriction from female priests come out of the fact that at the Mass a priest stands in place of Christ. Well in order to take a mans place, don't you sort of need a man? People want the ordination of women because they feel the church should keep up with the times. The only reason why we've lasted for 2,000 years is simply by not caving to popular opinion, nd following traditions. Thats what the church is about. Tradtion.
  25. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    The tradition of silence seems to have hurt many children, but I guess that's what you get. Tradition it appears is a two edged sword.
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