Is this Cardinal's Convention headed by the Pope actually going to solve anything?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Apr 24, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Rayder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    Wylding:

    Equating an alleged "code of silence" about sexual abuse with the Church's Sacred Tradition.....are you TRYING to piss people off? That is an absurd analogy, and you know it. I, for one, find your statement incredibly insulting.
  2. DarthLothi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with you, ami-padme. One child abused is too many, and any priest with even one substantiated charge against him should be removed and turned over to the police. Law should be sacked - in my view, his actions are just as criminal as those of Shanley and Geoghan.

    As a Catholic, I was very disappointed in the outcome of the Cardinals' meeting. I was hoping for a much sronger condemnation of the bishops who have covered up these crimes, and would have loved to see some of them forced to step down. As for the offending priests, I have found one area of agreement with all the Baptists that live around me: may they burn.
  3. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    PLEASE!!!!!!

    The catholic church has made plenty of crazy fix it traditions that are meaningless. Case in point, the celibacy law. And back in the day you could BUY your way into heaven. Yes. That's a fact. The church would let you pay to get your sins forgiven. No joke. Look it up.

    Sure, Catholicism has core beliefs that shouldn't be altered, I wouldn't expect a Catholic to believe that Jesus ISN'T the one true savior because I don't believe, but there are plenty of other, shall we say "superfluous" beliefs that the Pope and crew just made up on the fly. That's why there's all these protestants, I guess.
  4. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    I've never understood why the catholic church is against contraception, given the misery and death associated with overpopulation in poor countries.

    Pope John Paul 1 was going to change all that and he was murdered.

    Of course the issue was never raised again.



  5. _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 4
    Obi Wan McCartney,

    No offense, mi amigo, and i'm a non-Catholic, but have you looked into the history of the celibacy issue, the reason for its implementation and the basis of that implementation?

    It actaully derives itself from the words of Paul in the epistles, and was for the good of all, especially the families of the priests.

    One reason being that Missionaries wives and children were being kidnapped and murdered. Another was the lack of time a Priest would have for his family if left behind while he was in the mission field, and that a priest might be more dedicated to his parishoners and charges.

    I have a friend who is a celebate member of the catholic clergy, and for him it is no burden at all. He freely chose the life decision and could freely extricate himself if he chose.

    Also, there are many in the Catholic Church who clergicly serve who are married. My former neighbor was a deacon.

    The problem is not with celibacy.
  6. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    No, McCartney's right. Read my post on the last page on this. It was NOT created because of Paul.


    And women were respected MUCH MORE by Jesus than they were by anyone else. We see how he treats them and we think nothing of it because things are so much more equal -- but the fact that he even conversed with him like adults and not children back then was shocking. He treated women like equals.

    And Catholic priests aren't supposed to represent Jesus (the human part of him, anyway) but God. And God is genderless. He would have to be. Why would God need sexual organs??
  7. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Well, all I can say is that my understanding is that the decision HAD religous ties, of course, but the TRUE reason the decision was made was due to concerns over land and money. At least that's what they taught me at the University.
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    And back in the day you could BUY your way into heaven. Yes. That's a fact. The church would let you pay to get your sins forgiven. No joke. Look it up.

    Do you realize how silly that sounds? It's not like God would go along with immorality of that kind. You couldn't buy or extort your way into heaven. Never could, never will. As is always the case, things were a bit more complicated than that.

    The catholic church has made plenty of crazy fix it traditions that are meaningless. Case in point, the celibacy law

    If it's so meaningless, why do many people find meaning in it?

    shall we say "superfluous" beliefs that the Pope and crew just made up on the fly.

    None of our beliefs were made up on the fly, and you can look that up.

    Pope John Paul 1 was going to change all that and he was murdered.

    Of course the issue was never raised again.


    That's simply not true. He was over 80 years old when elected, and simply died of old age. It happens.

    And Catholic priests aren't supposed to represent Jesus

    Actually, they represent Jesus.

  9. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    KnightWriter:

    Read "In God's Name" by David Yallop. Published in 1985 it spent 4 months on the New York Times bestseller list.

    Luciani Albino was Pope for 33 days. When he 'died' he was in perfect health. No autopsy was ever performed and no death certificate was ever issued.

    He died on the eve of him announcing ground breaking reforms to the Vatican Bank and to the corporate way in which the Roman Catholic Church operated globally. He was also going to renounce the encyclical ban on contraception.

    Have a read. It may change the way you view the way the Vatican does business. It's not anti-christian in any way, merely points out the corruption of the Vatican.

    But we're getting off topic. My apologies.
  10. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    * whistles a jaunty tune *
  11. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Back in the day? If I'm not mistaken, that concept is still alive and well in some parts of the world.

    There is no such doctrine in any part of the world today.

    The Catholic Church is in major need of reform, and that is a major understatement.

    Reforms such as?...

  12. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Well, getting rid of child molesters and turning them into the authorities instead of keeping their behavior secret would be a nice start.

    Unless it's changed in the past few years, The Vatican still takes money to reduce your time in purgatory.

    I'm going to erase my last post, because the intent was not to offend anyone. I'm just not a big fan of organized religion these days, and I'll leave it at that.
  13. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    Oh please, Darth Fierce -- if people didn't use religion as an excuse to hate each other they'd just find another way. You can't blame religion for all the world's problems. I'm so sick of hearing that argument I could puke.
  14. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    If I don't kick my neighbor's dog, he might find another reason to punch me... but maybe not.

    This is silly, and has no chance of being resolved.

    :)
  15. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Unless it's changed in the past few years, The Vatican still takes money to reduce your time in purgatory.

    No, it doesn't.

    As for the rest, I'll leave it alone. A resolution isn't going to come here, as you said.
  16. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    It's the difference between people using religion as an excuse for division and religion mandating or positively sanctioning such division.
  17. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    The Vatican still takes money to reduce your time in purgatory.

    Well, I got that right from the source. I know someone who was there and witnessed it.

    Here's some links:

    [link=http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1998/indulgences-cont.html]Indulgences:[/link]

    In case you don't know, Indulgences were quite the craze in the Middle Ages. The idea is simple: Catholics believe that when you die, you go to Purgatory; there you must atone for your sins. An Indulgence simply allows you to buy atonement for a sin in advance. An ingenious, popular and highly lucrative idea -- because it wasn't long before the Church began selling Indulgences. If you were a rich nobleman who wanted to sin, it was a simple matter to make a charitable donation to the Catholic Church and be given an Indulgence. You could then sin with a clear conscience, and the Church could add some more gold leaf to the walls of the Vatican.

    Geoffrey Chaucer satirized the practice of granting indulgences in The Canterbury Tales; Martin Luther took the more direct route and nailed his objections to the doors of his local church. And now Indulgences are available again, for a limited time only. The Electronic Telegraph quotes the assistant general secretary to the Roman Catholic Bishops' Conference in England and Wales. As he puts it, "My initial reaction is one of embarrassment." You don't say? I bet intelligent Catholics everywhere are cringing in embarrassment, and deservedly so.



    [link=http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/vatican3.htm]Also:[/link]

    December 3, 1998

    There's the 30-year mortgage,debit cards and banking by phone. Now, the Roman Catholic Church has brought back a practice which even many of its followers had consigned to the historical dustbin as both obsolete thinking and an embarrassment, even an overt expressionism of greed and commercialism, which the playwright Geoffrey Chaucer had mocked in "The Canterbury Tales." On Sunday, Pope John Paull II officially declared the year 2000 as a "Great Jubilee" for believers, and announced that god would be honoring "indulgences" -- credit earned toward punishment time in purgatory


    More info [link=http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/ZINDULG.HTM]here[/link]


    [link=http://css.peak.org/newsletter/1998/dec98/indulgences.html]and here[/link]
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    On Sunday, Pope John Paull II officially declared the year 2000 as a "Great Jubilee" for believers, and announced that god would be honoring "indulgences" -- credit earned toward punishment time in purgatory

    Not obtained through money.

  19. Shedao15 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    BTW: Church teaching states that in order for an indulgence to obtain you must first have your sin forgiven. Then you may recieve you indugence, which merley removed punishment not the sin itself. Nor could indugences be obtained for future sins, yet to be commited.

    As for JPI: That is the most ludicrous thing, I don't even see the point in adressing it.
  20. Darth Rayder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    At one point in the Middle Ages, the Church would grant indulgences to donors.

    Now, however, indulgences are meted out when Catholics follow certain disciplines and prayers.

    One of the most popular (because it requires, I feel, very little effort) is the discipline known as The Divine Mercy.

    On Divine Mercy Sunday, (usually a week or two after Easter), one needs only to go to confession, recieve the Eucharist, and pray a prayer similar to the Rosary called the Divine Mercy Chaplet (it is prayed using Rosary beads to keep track of where you are in the prayer, but the prayer is different). This grants a "plenary indulgence", or complete remission of temporal punishment (purgatory) for those sins committed prior to the Divine Mercy weekend (assuming, of course, that a valid, worthy confession was made).

    Not a penny exchanges hands in this process.
  21. Shedao15 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    Actually I take that back. Its such a ludicrous thing I must adress it for fear that someone may fall into the trap.

    Do you realize that what you are saying is that we killed a man because he was going to condemn a 1,000 year old teaching? Especially when many...more radical teaching have been overturned in the churches history? We never killed John XXIII or Paul VI. If that is what you truly believe than hope your next advisory meeting in the mental ward goes well.
  22. LostOnHoth Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Read the book. Great stuff.
  23. Darth Rayder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 4
    Just because it's in a book does not mean it's true.
  24. Shedao15 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 4
    NAZI's say that about mien kampf, but you wouldn't believe them now would you? Put yourself in my shoes, would you believe that? The problem is that there is always someone out there willing to think up some crazy $#!% and there will always be a sheep to believe it. Of course they say that about the Bible too. So I guess you have to look at this way. I regard you believing in that book the same way you regard me for following the Bible. Crazy huh?
  25. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Okay... Let's not take it too far now.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.