PT is Vader's birth a mistake of Obi-Wan and Yoda?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 21, 2017.

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  1. Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2016
    star 3
    I never understood why Obi-Wan and Yoda never offered a second chance to Anakin
    He was manipulated by Palpatine so his actions are justified by the shock of the moment

    I never understood why Yoda did not go to Mustafar to talk to Anakin and convince him to return to the light maybe Yoda would have convinced him that it was not too late and would have let him live with Padme on a small planet after defeating Palpatine together

    Why does Yoda decide to eliminate Anakin and not help him? and why does Obi-Wan decide to go and confront him instead of helping him? and even in the Original Trilogy Obi-Wan and Yoda want to kill Vader but Luke refuses to do it

    Do you think Vader's motive for hating the Jedi is because of Obi Wan and Yoda?
    I believe that if Qui Gon had never died Anakin would never have become Darth Vader
    Last edited by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 21, 2017
  2. Oissan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 7
    Anakin had plenty of chances, he choose his own fate.

    I don't see how Yoda could possibly say anything that Obi Wan couldn't. Obi Wan was a lot closer to Anakin than Yoda was, if anyone could have succeeded it was Obi Wan. Yoda didn't know about Padme, nor could he really offer anything that would have convinced Anakin. Anakin was sure that Padme would die in childbirth, and that only his new powers could save her. Yoda never would have taught Anakin anything that could save someone from certain death, the whole idea goes contrary to what the lightside is about, if he even knew how something like that could be achieved, which is very unlikely. Anakin was convinced that only Palpatine could help him save Padme, hence him protecting Palpatine from Windu. Once that happened, the path was clear and there was nothing that could be done to convince him otherwise. By the time Obi Wan reached him on Mustafar, he was already somewhat delusional anyway, his mind went through more and more absurd ideas to justify his behaviour, hence going from doing everything to save Padme to overthrowing the Emperor and ruling the galaxy.

    I don't see how Obi Wan didn't try to help him, it's just that Anakin couldn't be helped anymore. Anakin's words made it very clear that he made up his mind, Obi Wan still appealed to him and only opted to fight once it became clear that Anakin was now against everything the Jedi stood for. I don't think that Yoda and Obi Wan had much to do with Vader hating anyone either. Anakin was furious because he didn't get his way, and once everything went downhill he needed someone to blame for his own failures. Either he is projection his self-hatred onto others, or his mind tries to protect itself by blaming others.

    Technically, neither Yoda nor Obi Wan ever asked Luke to kill Vader. They told him he needed to face Vader, and Luke understood it as they wanting him to kill Vader, but that is just an assumption. We don't really know whether they thought that Vader needed to be killed or whether there was a chance for him to be saved. Obi Wan does say some things that suggest that he didn't believe Anakin could be saved, but that could just be him influencing Luke to do the very opposite.
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  3. Martoto77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2016
    star 4
    It does seem hastily vindictive for a Jedi. "The Jedi have been betrayed Death to Skywalker and Sidious."
    Last edited by Martoto77, Sep 21, 2017
  4. The One Above All Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Here's something worth pondering: Did Obi-Wan and Yoda ever even find out why Anakin joined Palpatine in the first place? Obi-Wan probably heard something before emerging from Padme's ship, but chances are, all he received were snippets of a greater picture. You'd think as well, that if Obi-Wan knew the full story, he'd have told Luke, when they conversed, after Yoda's passing.

    Additionally, here's something else: Why didn't Palpatine think the reason was worth mentioning, when Luke was brought before him?
  5. wobbits Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2017
    star 2
    Pretty sure Palpatine didn't mention it to Luke for two reasons;

    1. George didn't have the prequels written when he filmed ROTJ so there was no way Anakin's reason was going to come up in film conversation between Palps and Luke.

    2. Palpatine didn't give two flying figs WHY Vader turned only that he successfully seduced Anakin to the dark side. He wanted Anakin's power to carry out his plans. And all Palpatine was interested in during ROTJ was turning Luke into his next apprentice. Do you really think that Palpatine would have figured he had a chance at turning Luke if Palpatine admitted that he manipulated Luke's father with the promise of power (that he didn't truly have at the time) to save Padme?
  6. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Obi-Wan does try to reason with him to some degree. Right before the culmination of the duel Obi-Wan even tries a last ditch effort to save Anakin's life by insisting that he knows he has Anakin beaten with the high ground move. I'd say this actually makes Obi-Wan's and Yoda's ruthlessness in the OT even more understandable given that we see first hand how unwilling Anakin had become to heed his former masters.

    As for them getting the blame for Vader, no, that's too simple a reading in my view. Ultimately, the choice is Anakin's, although the trilogy gives me plenty of understanding of all that led to Anakin's downfall, including his place in the Jedi order.
  7. THX_1138biggs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1

    This about the Republic and the Sith ruling it. Don't think that's a good thing.
    It has nothing to do with revenge on the Jedi's part. The Sith at this point are too dangerous to be kept alive.

    Yes the Jedi practice no killing but the Sith are not human (or rational living beings). They're monsters, they use the Force for evil. They want death and destruction of anything good in the galaxy, and this applies to values and ideas. Don't think arresting them will be beneficial.
    Last edited by THX_1138biggs, Sep 21, 2017
  8. Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2017
    star 1
    One thing that I have never quite understood is the way in which Sith can be instantly redeemed if they renounce their ways and return to the light.

    To my mind, Anakin had long passed the point of redemption by the time Obi Wan arrived at Mustafar. Anakin had already slaughtered Jedi (including younglings) and a group of political leaders.

    To be quite honest, Anakin didn't deserve to live happily ever after on a quiet planet with Padme. He deserved to be severely punished for his actions. I would also lose respect for the character of Padme if she was willing to live happily ever after with Anakin after his shenanigans.

    I can't categorically state that a desire to dispense justice was a motivating factor behind the actions of Obi wan and Yoda. That said, I do think that they were motivated by practicality. Yoda couldn't have went to Mustafar because Emperor Palpatine had to be confronted. Only Yoda had a chance to defeat Palpatine.

    I believe that Obi Wan chose to confront Anakin because Anakin had proven himself too dangerous to be left alive. Obi Wan had just experienced the deaths of his fellow Jedi (the closest thing he had to family) and the destruction of an institution that had brought peace to the galaxy for millennia. Anakin had shown himself to be utterly ruthless and was on the cusp of unparalleled power. For the sake of the galaxy, Anakin had to be eliminated. The stakes were simply too high.
    Last edited by Dannik Jerriko, Sep 23, 2017
  9. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    He was severely punished. His limbs were hacked off, he was immolated alive, he was left with permanent disabilities, he suffered guilt over killing both Jedi and Separatists (which he did) and his wife and child/children (which he didn't), he was electrocuted, and he died. But, in what would be called a deathbed conversion on Earth, he repented his crimes and ended up in Light Side Heaven, with his Mom, Padme and Qui-Gon.
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  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    The impression I got from both TCW Season 6 and the ROTS novelization, was that there was no such thing as "Light Side Heaven" - that preserving one's consciousness after death was something extremely new (at least to the Jedi Order) and mysterious.

    So Anakin may not be "meeting his Mom and Padme" after death.
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  11. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    I prefer to think that, in "Star Wars", everybody survives in the afterlife, in one place or another. It's just those who have unusual Light Side abilities who can communicate with the living from the afterlife. And as far as the whole Jedi "lose consciousness and merge with the Force" thing, how do they know? Spock had the perfect reply in "Star Trek IV": unless they've actually been dead, they can't understand the afterlife.

    I agree I'm being sentimental, but that's just me. I'll stick with it.
  12. Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2017
    star 1
    I take your point that Anakin was eventually punished. I meant that, prior to having his limbs lopped off and being flame grilled, he may theoretically have been returned to the light side. If that had been the case, I do not think that he could have been completely redeemed. If nothing else, he had proven himself too dangerous.
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  13. boonjj Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2016
    star 1
    Obi-Wan and Yoda watched Anakin murder a room full of younglings. Theres no reasoning with that. He went past the point of no return and they all knew it, including Anakin himself.
  14. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Adult man who betrays his "family" and murders children? I don't think that can be justified by shock of the moment. This isn't a DUI it's basically a genocide.

    I've never heard anyone put it better than that. =D=
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Sep 23, 2017
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  15. DARTHLINK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 4
    It must also be reminded that Anakin didn't exactly leave Obi-Wan with much room to talk and maneuver what with his whole "I've seen through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the Dark Side as you do! (...) Don't make me kill you...if you're not with me, then you're my enemy!" Hardly sounds like something to come from a guy wanting to listen.
  16. Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2016
    star 5
    I don’t see any evidence of insta-redemption. Yes, a Sith can atone for his or her sins and be redeemed by a great act of compassion, as Vader did. That’s a kind of personal redemption and a redemption in the eyes of Luke. But had Vader survived, he would have been thrown in a New Republic jail for life. So though he redeemed himself, it doesn’t follow that he faces no consequences in a moral society.
  17. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    It's very much like a prisoner who has a religious epiphany. He may receive forgiveness from God, but that doesn't mean he'll be instantly paroled. Divine forgiveness and civil forgiveness aren't the same thing.
  18. Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2016
    star 5
    Exactly. It’s actually what I want to see for the conclusion of Kylo’s arc. Forgiveness from God, but a harsh punishment from Caesar.
    Last edited by Gigoran Monk, Sep 24, 2017
  19. Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2017
    star 1
    "It's very much like a prisoner who has a religious epiphany. He may receive forgiveness from God, but that doesn't mean he'll be instantly paroled. Divine forgiveness and civil forgiveness aren't the same thing."

    I would tend to agree with this. I have often struggled to reconcile Anakin's having been accepted back into the light with the enormity of his crimes. I think that this difficulty may stem from my attempting to apply the precepts of civil justice onto the concept of divine forgiveness.
    Last edited by Dannik Jerriko, Sep 24, 2017
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  20. boonjj Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2016
    star 1
    I still struggle with the "divine forgiveness" thing though, always have.

    Like you can pretty much do any evil act (such as killing children and being an evil henchman for a few decades) but as long you say youre really sorry an hour before your death then youll get into heaven regardless? Seems like a cheat!
  21. {Quantum/MIDI} Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2015
    star 5
    Humans hate the idea of gaining such a purpose/ability of accepting "God" into your heart. This implies that the villain will have been ascended to heaven while the supposed innocent bystander goes to hell. Of course no one really knows if said villain has said belief or if the one innocent doesn't believe. We cannot go into the minds of everyone.

    But I do find that funny...We hate those who gain reward through forgiveness and repentance, a simple act. It however, is more complex than that. Although I understand what you are feeling, I've been backing off on those thoughts as of late. In my own conclusion, what do we universally believe as humans, what can or cannot be redeemed?
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  22. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    The Christian perspective is that it has to be a genuine admission of guilt, a true desire for repentance and a full profession of faith. Peace is granted, but the effect of all the evil that was done is still there. Just saying the words with no real conviction means nothing, and it's damnation time. Ani's fate follows the path of the former, from a GFFA point of view. He recognizes his sin, is genuinely repentant and places his faith in the Force. The difference is that an action on his part is part of the equation, namely tossing Palpatine down the shaft and saving Luke, even though he knew he'd die in the attempt.
  23. DARTHLINK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 4
    In Anakin's case, he really couldn't do much redemption-acting because he was dying. Now had he grabbed Luke's lightsaber and impaled Palpatine from the back, that might be different...
  24. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    That would have been so cool!
  25. ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2015
    star 4
    The guy just wiped out a Temple full of Jedi, I doubt he was ever gonna go back to the Jedi especially that quickly
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