PT is Vader's birth a mistake of Obi-Wan and Yoda?

It would be completely horrendous. It is very important that Anakin didn‘t die as murderer: he left Palpatine of the mercy of his own monstrousity, metaphorically speaking. Is one of the details that I like most in ROTJ, but unfortunately it passes ignored. No one could be redeemed by literal killing, Anakin is redeemed by saving his son and destroying the Sith.

I see some here are ready to punish and to give justice: an eye for an eye just like in the old times. What a relieve that Luke refused to think that way. If he did it no one would survive. As said a wise man in another universe: even the wisest cannot see all ends. The pity of one can decide the fate of many. In this case: of the whole world.
But speaking of this, no man is an island. Of course the last word is Anakin‘s word and he took the wrong decision but this doesn‘t mean that Obi Wan and Yoda got it all right. They know that they made huge mistakes or Vader shouldn‘t be born and when I say that they knew: just look at Obi Wan‘s reaction when he left Mustafar. He used Padme as “mean“ to reach Anakin and she “went into trouble“ if I can say so. This is not an innocent act but the goal justifies the means, right? This doesn‘t suspend Anakin‘s fault however except Padme in this situation no one did it right.

 

Were we watching the same film? He did murder Palpatine; in cold blood. He tossed him down a shaft into a F@#$ING ENERGY REACTOR. I'm sure if he wanted to he could have just clocked him in the back of the head and knocked him out with his cyborg strength.

 

There is nothing in this scene done in cold blood except maybe Palpatine‘s lighting. I‘m glad that Lucas added the so mocked by the fans “No“ to show how conflicted Vader is at that moment. All he cared is to save his son‘s life. That‘s why he trowed Palpatine away “reflecting“ the lighting and in the process he was electrocuted so he sacrificed also his life for Luke. If he cared at all about killing he would do something different, of course. So symbolically is important that Vader didn‘t kill the Emperor with his own hands (i.e. stabbing him or something like that).

 

I won't comment from a story point of view, but from a filmmaking point of view, the scene as originally presented in 1983 was perfect. The music and tension builds up to an almost unbearable level, then BOOM, Vader grabs the Emperor and the Force theme crashes in as he tosses him screaming into the shaft. We in the audience let out a cheer that could be heard over three states, I'm sure.

Stabbing him in the back wouldn't have worked anywhere near as well. There had to be something really cinematic.

 

Throwing someone from more than 1 story is literally attempted murder. Trying to do mental gymnastics to say otherwise is ridiculous.

 

I don‘t want to be rude, however I think you should read more about what ATTEMPTED murder really means. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder
The intention is obviously missing here or if you like it more, a previous plan or idea to do exactly that. So the idea of Vader was to save his son, not stab the emperor.

 

Nothing is rude about debating SW with other nerds online lol come on man.

I think YOU should put less confidence behind internet sites that can be edited by anyone.

Again, if Vader didn't want to kill the Emperor he could have knocked him unconscious from behind. No, he picked him up, carried him over to the railing, and threw him into a hundreds of metres deep pit. That is cold blood murder. It was an eye for an eye. Considering the Emperor was pure evil, it was a righteous act, but don't pretend his intention wasn't to kill the man.

 

Yeah, it's pretty clear Vader was trying to kill Palpatine. He may have even been trying to throw himself into the shaft as well but didn't quite have the strength to do it.

 

I agree that Vader's intention was to kill Palpatine. His motive may have been saving Luke, but he intended to kill Palpatine in the act. This was a spontaneous act, but it was intentional. Not all murders are calculated and premeditated.

Personally, I love the way that scene plays out. By throwing Palpatine into the abyss, he is also casting off his influence and removing it from the galaxy as a whole.

There is one details that still niggles a little. If Vader was motivated out of a desire to save his son, could we honestly say that he was redeemed by a truly selfless act? He did not (as far as we know) sacrifice himself for the greater good of the galaxy as a whole. Rather, he died in the act of saving his own son. There are many truly evil people who still care deeply about their own families.

 

Well, he certainly did stop the horrors by killing Palpatine and himself. Yes the Rebellion would still have to fight off Imperial officers, but this was certainly a boon for them.

 

I think part of the thinking for both Yoda and Obi Wan was influenced by their fear of their diminished ability to use the Force that was discussed in AOTC. As Yoda stated, if this had become common knowledge the enemies of the Jedi would use this advantage.

Yoda was concerned that if they did not act swiftly and very decisively the massive shift in the Force to the Dark Side would prevent them from being powerful enough to defeat Vader and Palpitine and lead to greater suffering for the galaxy.

I also wonder if the shift in the Force really did affect the core values of very Force sensitive Beings and erode some of the compassion that would have otherwise been part of the decision making process.

And, Yoda and Obi Wan had just lost virtually all of the personnel and resources they would have required for a prolonged conflict against a foe with vast resources. The best time to strike would be in the period of transition while everyone was still getting their feet under them after the shocking events that had taken place.

 

He killed him to prevent him from murdering another person. That's not murder by any definition--and certainly not murder in cold blood.

You can come with all kinds of invented scenarios where Vader could have taken him out without killing him, but that's clearly not part of the intent of the scene. Vader killed Palpatine because it was the only way to stop him from doing what he was doing.

 

Again, he could have just knocked him unconscious. Murdering someone by throwing them off a high ledge is NOT the only way to stop them. Let's be real, common sensed adults here.

 

Ok, let's begin with the fact that no real man can throw lighting trough his fingers. Actually in real world he would be dead or at least unconscious if this electricity passes though his body. I hope this corresponds to the common sense of everyone, adult or not.

 

Yes, Vader had a number of ways to stop Palpatine, but I think we know by now that foresight isn’t his strongest trait.

 

Anakin was thought to be irredeemable after killing younglings. Why would Yoda believe Anakin can be redeemed after killing most of the Jedi Order and swearing allegiance to Darth Sidious. Obi-Wan tried to reason with Anakin and speak with him.

 

not so much yoda but i do blame windu and a little bit of kenobi

 

In the new book From a Certain Point of View,

Spoiler

Qui-Gon's ghost, enlightened and one with the Force and all that, still wants to blame himself as an emotional reaction but ultimately agrees with Obi-Wan that Anakin's fall was "more his choice than anyone else's failure." That Anakin had the training and knew better and was capable of making better choices, and did not.

So maybe we can lay this "Anakin's fall is everyone's fault but Anakin's and perfect Anakin would never have made even one mistake if (insert character) did this or that differently" business to rest.

 

Or we could certainly burn that particular strawman and then dance around it gaily.

 

Wait what?? In ROTJ it is pretty obvious and clear as day they want Luke to face off and kill Vader and Palps. When he says "I can't kill my own father." Obi wan SIGHS and says "Then the Emperor has already won." This is NOT AN ASSUMPTION. Why didn't Yoda correct him here and say, "No don't kill him just get him to redeem himself and turn back to the light."

 

Yoda's stance is questionable. He never told Luke he needed to kill Vader. Obi-Wan is the one who basically said it's hopeless if Luke doesn't kill him, but he also seems to have some hope as the conversation ends with him giving Luke advice not to underestimate the Emperor.

 

That doesn't make ANY sense, both Yoda and Obi clearly wanted Vader dead. Why would Yoda just repeat the same lines Obi-Wan said anyways? It's implied otherwise Yoda would have corrected or say something to that would conflict with Obi-Wan. His stance is anything but "questionable. " The novel adaptions make it even more clear.

 

It makes plenty of sense. In the film there is nothing clear about it. Yoda's dialogue is purposely vague if anything.
He could have easily said "you must KILL/SLAY/DESTROY Vader." He didn't. He purposely said "confront." Confront does not mean kill.

An employee can confront a boss. A victim can confront a bully. A person can confront their demons. None of these involve killing.

 

You're inserting your own personal opinion into Yoda. Burden of proof is on you to prove Yoda wants Luke to turn Vader back to the lightside. I see zero evidence of that. Confronting clearing means fighting more than it means turning him back to the light. If that was the case there would literally be dozens of lines to support this. Instead Obi-wan says he wants Luke to strike down Vader and Yoda agrees. It is clear as day. Consensus would agree with me here.

 

This is quite possibly the most ironic statement ever. lmao

Yoda said confront, and yet YOU'RE saying he meant kill. And the burden is on me to prove he meant what he said, rather than on you to prove that he meant otherwise?