PT Isnt Anakin a bit too young for Padme?

I think I understood what you meant initially about their ages: you think it would be better to have had Padmé and Anakin start off older in TPM that way there would be an additional movie to aid in the development of their relationship (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can see why this would be an appealing option, but personally, I like that Padmé and Anakin have one movie together where she's not a love interest and Anakin (at most) has a precocious crush on her. Too often, I find, female characters don't get enough development because they're immediately roped into the "love interest" slot and all of their characterization seems to revolve around developing the male character from the get-go. I like that Lucas never took this approach with Padmé and established her character on her own in TPM as a Queen and politician before she becomes interested in Anakin. It gives her a bit of time to develop so the audience can identify with her and her struggles and ideology. Lucas does this rather well with Leia in the OT, too, since she's not really slotted into the love interest role until ESB (or at least not fully).

I would note though, that you seem to be willing to give Han leeway for his immaturity since he rushed back to the command center to save Leia. Well...shouldn't the same also be applied Anakin then? He saved her home planet and in the beginning of AOTC, he saves her life and pursues her assassin. Should that not "melt" Padmé's heart as well. But, truthfully, even if Han and Anakin do these brave things, Padmé and Leia are under no obligation to return their affections. After all, Luke's done arguably more than Han for the Rebellion and clearly has feelings for Leia in ESB, but she never really reciprocates.

Plus, I question your use of "stalkerish" to describe Anakin. Saying Padmé is intoxicating and looking at her again when she asks him not to is not stalkerish behavior. And he most certainly backs off when he asks her to and treats her with respect throughout AOTC. Han, by contrast, consistently touches Leia, refuses to let her go, and pushes her up against walls even after she's asked him to stop. Han's behavior towards Leia in ESB is far more worthy of censure than Anakin's behavior towards Padmé. So I think it's unfair to characterize him as "stalkerish," unless you want to go ahead and call Han's behavior "rapey."

 

Actually, I have no issue with the age gap between Padme and Anakin. I stated that the first time I posted in this thread.

And actually, I didn't even want to bring Han and Leia into the discussion. But someone else did, so being the H/L fan that I am, I popped back in to defend them.

And I didn't mean that Leia was under any "obligation" to return affection to Han. And I hope I didn't imply that. I was just trying to throw another reason why Leia might be attracted to him. Since a previous poster seemed to think my semi-tongue-in-cheek response of "Han is hot!!!" was an inadequate reason on its own.

Truthfully, it's very hard to compare the two couples. And I think the main reason why it's easier to believe the Han/Leia relationship progression, is because by the very first scene between them in ESB, it's obvious that there's some sort of sexual tension between them. And we can only assume that this started to develop in the (2? 3 years? I'm not sure of the gap between the first two movies) offscreen time span between films. And that's key right there. Because while we don't know the specifics, we know that these two have spent *a lot* of time together, and therefore it's completely plausible that a relationship (or hint of a relationship, whatever), began to develop between them.

So on that note, I don't think Han's pursuit of Leia is "stalkerish". A little aggressive? Maybe. (And I think calling his behavior "rapey" is just outright ridiculous. At no time did Leia feel threatened. And giving his actions that overblown label is really an insult to people who have been victim to that type of horrific behavior). Anyway, he's not pursuing her in a vacuum. He's obviously acting on signs that Leia has given him in the past. He doesn't doubt she's attracted to him. And taken at face value, people might think "Oh, he's so arrogant." But no, I think he knows it because she has accidentally shown her hand on more than one occasion. Again, it's very easy to assume this, because of the time gap between films, and that first scene in the command center. And his attraction is not random or off-base. Because again, he's spent a lot of time with this woman, has presumably gotten to know her really well, and therefore there is a clear basis for him to be falling in love with her.

Why does she love him? Who knows. Besides the reasons I gave, there's a million intangible things that makes someone feel drawn to another. But the actions and portrayals of those two characters make me have no doubt that there's *something* there.

And that's where the Padme/Anakin relationship suffers in comparison. Because from the first scene Anakin is spouting about how he's thought of her everyday and he finds her "intoxicating" and he's just so *overwhelmed* with his feelings for her. And he has spent NO time with her in the past ten years. None. And I"m sorry, but if I was Padme? That would be off-putting. What is this based on? He doesn't even *know* her, really. So his feelings seem more obsessive than anything else. Maybe he's in "lust" with her, but any other type of true feelings takes *time* to develop.

And again....maybe it's just me. But if some guy I met briefly, years and years ago, even if it was for month, came back into my life and came on full force like that....I would not be turned on. I'd be scared. Because that doesn't seem like the actions of a balanced person. And yes, Anakin saved her life. That was cool. But he also then ran off and slaughtered a tribe of sand people. Again, if I was Padme? Alarm bells and red flags. Again, not the actions of a balanced person.

Han, in comparison, has not shown such unbalanced tendencies. Just sayin'. Even when he "shot first", it was in implied self-defense.

I'm sorry, this post is a bit rushed--I'm on my lunch break. And I'm sure I'm missing a few key points. But I wanted to respond while the iron was hot.

 

Okay, that's fair enough. Sorry if my post seemed confrontational.

I agree that it's very difficult to compare them. I would argue, though, that the largest reason is because the Anakin-Padmé relationship (although they love each other) is portrayed as unhealthy in a lot of ways, namely in terms of Anakin's attachment issues. Their relationship becomes a major plot point in ROTS for that reason. Han and Leia, though, are presented in a more idealized fashion, I would say. It seems to me that it draws a lot of inspiration from Gone With the Wind which is visible in not only things such as the poster art, but also the sniping back and forth (the "scoundrel" conversation is basically paraphrased from GWTW, for example). For me, that's problematic, because I've both read the book and seen the movie and Rhett and Scarlett's relationship was not in any way healthy -- it was mutually destructive. And so, for me, the fact that Han and Leia's relationship hits so many of the same notes, but (at the same time) attempts to portray the couple in a positive light doesn't really ring true.

You're right that they had two to three years to get to know each other, which is certainly good, but I don't know that it makes them a more believable relationship than Anakin and Padmé's necessarily. Anakin and Padmé have always struck me as a bit of a wartime romance -- where they rush into marriage in large part because Anakin is going to be leaving to fight. Additionally, both Anakin and Padmé seem like people who latch onto each other as a means of fulfilling a need as much as it is about love -- hence why Anakin in particular is so attached. This is made very explicit in the deleted scenes where Anakin flat out states that he thought of Naboo and Padmé when he was lonely.

I wasn't trying to say that Han was "stalkerish" or "rapey." Rather, I was trying to state that, if one was willing to categorize Anakin as a stalker merely because he thinks of Padmé and looks at her (once) after she's asked him to stop, then Han's constant infringement of Leia's personal space should at the very least be considered sexual harassment going by that standard. And Leia may not have felt threatened, but there's no real way for Han to be sure of that and when she says "no" or "stop" he should respect that. I would say it's not so much the cockiness that I find off-putting as it is the lack of respect. And a lot of people will say that Han would never do anything to hurt Leia, and that might be true, but just because they've known each other for a while doesn't mean he can disregard what she says. For me, that's a big issue, because people who are harassed and assaulted usually aren't attacked by strangers, but by people they consider to be friends or colleagues. And maybe I'm just sensitive to stuff like this, but I could never be with a person who didn't listen to me when I said "stop" or "no" -- unless we had some kind of prearranged agreement beforehand. And I have a hard time buying it from a no-nonsense woman like Leia.

So I can see what you mean about them knowing each other for years giving Leia a good basis for falling in love with him, but I just don't like that Han's actions are shown to be effective in getting her to "come around." The "no means yes" factor just doesn't sit right with me.

I can see why you would find it off-putting. At the same time, though, it works for me because Anakin does back off when Padmé asks him to. After the fireplace scene, when Padmé says she "couldn't live like that," Anakin respects her decision and basically stops pursuing her. After that, she is the one to initiate every contact -- she goes out to see him while he's meditating, she goes with him to find his mother, she reaches out and hugs him, she goes down in the garage, she sits and comforts him, she confesses that she loves him after he simply says "don't be afraid." And Anakin never mentions his feelings for her again after the fireplace scene until that moment -- he even calls her "Senator" again. But that's the important thing to me -- he would have let her go, but still cared about her, even if she wouldn't be with him. And that is respecting her. Is he intense and even obsessive about his feelings? Yes. But he never tries to hide it -- he lays his cards out on the table and she can take it or leave it. And I can imagine that Padmé, who works in politics and is used to having to discern people's intentions or pull apart lies, likely appreciated it.

Plus, the way I've always seen Padmé is that she's a bit of a martyr type. She has to try to save everyone and do everything on her own (even if she doesn't necessarily want to), such as when she goes back to save her planet, when she decides to become a Senator although she wanted to stop, or when she goes to rescue Obi-Wan. She's not afraid to sacrifice herself to a cause. And so I think her relationship with Anakin fits into that paradigm, in that he needs her (especially once his mother dies) and thus she's not being selfish by being with him. She won't risk his position as a member of the Jedi Order, but with a war having broken out, and Anakin as unbalanced as he is, I think it makes sense for her to want to be there for him, especially given that he's done a lot for her already.

 

Han Solo was on Conan last night, he's still rattled 30 years later that Luke and Leia are siblings

 

To be honest, I haven't been that impressed by Lucas' handling of Leia's character during my recent viewing of ANH and ESB.

 

That was my point. Thank you for reiterating.

Exactly.

No, you are. Are you trying to prove something?

 

Oh, no. It's fine. I didn't take it as confrontational at all. I just wanted to clarify my position. And I hope you don't find my tone confrontational or disrespectful either. I'm enjoying the debate. So no worries.

I actually semi-agree with you here. In the sense that Anakin *had* to be a little obsessive about her for the his turn to the Dark Side to make sense. And I think his (for lack of a better word--don't take it the wrong way) "stalkerish" behavior makes sense for the character. But I wish there had been a way for it to be conveyed to the audience that he's kinda obsessed with her, but that maybe he would've been able to tone it down a little in her presence. Because again, he comes across *sooo strong* that I can't for the life of me figure out why Padme doesn't find it off-putting. You know? So for the sake of the story, he needs to be like that. But I wish Padme wasn't so aware of it. *shrug*

Yeah, I'm aware that Han and Leia's dynamic was based on "Gone with the Wind". I'm actually reading "The Making of Empire Strikes Back" right now, and Lucas mentions the connection in his first notes on their budding relationship. But I think while their *dynamic* was supposed to be based on them, but it doesn't mean their entire characters were supposed to be based on Rhett and Scarlett. And certainly not their character arcs. It was merely a jumping off point for setting up the "I fight with you because I love you and I don't want you to know it" kinda vibe between them. But I don't think we're meant to take the comparison any further than that. We're certainly not supposed to assume that Han and Leia are gonna go on and make the same dysfunctional mistakes as the other two. I honestly don't think that was the filmmakers' intentions.

You make a valid point here. And under normal circumstances, this explanation for a whirlwind romance would totally make sense to me. And on Anakin's side, it kinda does. But I think one of AOTC's main failings is that I honestly don't understand why or when Padme's feelings for *him* changed. I don't think Lucas did a good job of really developing her side of the relationship. Because when she declares her "deep love" for him I felt like I got emotional whiplash. LIke "what? Huh? When did this happen....?" It just seemed like she went from indifference to caring to being "deeply in love with him" really quickly, I couldn't tell how or when that had happened. Or what the catalyst of it was.

I know you're probably gonna argue that the same could be said for Han and Leia. But truthfully, I think those two were in love before the movie started, and it was the "admitting it" that unfolded on screen. And again their "catalyst" could of been anything. Or a series of little "somethings". But ESB doesn't have the burden that AOTC does, to necessarily show us what it was, since presumably most of it happened off-screen.

I know writing a convincing love story that spans a two hour movie, and is really only half the main plot, is tricky. I have no doubt about it. I just think Lucas could've benefited from getting another writer onboard to help him make it more believable. I know there are plenty of fans that liked the Anakin/Padme love story as it was. And that's fine. I'm glad for them, I am. I just don't agree. I couldn't buy it. And since that is one of the main story arcs of AOTC, for me, it's the main reason that movie suffers and is low on my "Star Wars" list.

Oh, PiettsHat, as a woman, I admit, you have put me in a bit of a quandary. On the one hand, I sooooooo completely agree with you. I do. I admit it. And I hate how I want to defend Han's actions, because honestly, in any other context, I'd shoot daggers at a woman for saying what I'm about to say. But *sigh* here I go......

Okay, the "constant infringement" of her personal space? I'd argue we really only see that in the "first kiss" scene. (I really don't count his putting his arm around her shoulder in the med center as "infringement"--truthfully, she seemed way more bugged about what he was saying, than the personal contact). Anyway, so I really have to assume you're talking about the kiss scene.** And god forgive me, but I'm gonna say it: her "no" and "stop that" seem pretty half-hearted and unconvincing (my god, shoot me now, I AM saying this), and I think if she *really* wanted him to back off, Leia's a tough girl, she would've gotten him to back off. And I also think, if Han really thought she wanted him to stop, he would've.....(Oh, god. I hate what I'm saying. I sound like a frat boy date rapist.) But seriously, watching that scene? That's the vibe I get. And it sounds awful saying/typing it out loud, but it's true. Han knew she wanted it (again KILL ME), and by the end of the scene, with her arms wrapped around him, it's obvious that, dammit, the boy was right.

And again, I don't find that scene nearly as disturbing as perhaps I should. Because maybe you're kinda right. But I just don't get the "predator" vibe from Han in that scene. I get the "Okay, this is my chance to make my move. And I'm gonna knock down that emotional wall she's put up...." I think he just thought it was time to force the issue, because if he waited for her to come around completely on her own, it might've taken forever. And maybe he was just tired of all the fighting.

You may all kill me now. But this argument of mine is only to be used in the context of the ESB "first kiss scene". Not to applied to any other situations of sexual harassment.

**Okay, it just occurred to me, that maybe you're also talking about the scene in the cockpit, when Leia falls in his lap. Again, I don't count this, because that just *happened*, that wasn't Han's doing at all. And when she says "let go" and he doesn't right away---I don't think it was because Han had any sexual or malicious intent. I think he was literally only trying to get her shuddup, because he was trying to listen and figure out what the heck was going on outside the ship. I sincerely believe he had no other motives there. And his comment to her when he stands up, that's just harmless banter. I mean, she kinda walked into that one.....and it was kinda funny. I'm sorry, even as a woman, I would've just rolled my eyes at that one. But I'm not the type that's overly sensitive and gets riled up over every little comment that might have some innuendo. I mean, in the scheme of "sexual comments" that one is pretty darn tame. So, I have no problem with it.

Those are completely valid points. And I have no argument against them. Which I guess proves that I have more of a problem that he was these intense feelings from the get-go, then I do about how he acts on it (I mean, personally, I found his pickup lines lame. But thats neither here nor there. Because I guess Padme found them charming). And in the end, I have to assume, that you're right. She did appreciate it his honesty, because in the end she fell for him. Whereas I would've been freaked out and would've asked Obi Wan to put a leash on him.

So really, in the end, I think your argument has shed light on why some people totally accept and appreciate the Anakin/Padme relationship. I still don't buy it personally, but you are making me understand why others might. Much like some view (like you) the ESB kiss scene as inappropriate, where as I view it as "omigod, yes...kiss him! Kiss him!" *shrugs* Different strokes, I guess......

So that's not bad right? I bet you got farther with me than most people you argue with.

Oh, shoot. We almost left this post on a real high note, but then I read this part....I don't argue with Padme being a martyr type. I think you're spot-on with that. But I think it's a whole other thing to expect her to permanently bond herself with a unbalanced person just to, well, in the end, "be nice". I don't think right-minded woman would go *that* far, for anyone. And there are other ways to "be there" for someone without marrying them.

Whoa...wait dude. Aren't you making the same argument you accused of me making in my previous post? About how Leia shouldn't feel an "obligation" to Han for all that he's done for her? Aren't you kinda arguing that that might be part of Padme's reasoning here?

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate, PiettsHat. I hope you are, too. And I think you just inspired the longest post I've written on the JC in like ten years. Good job.

 

I see what you mean. At the same time, though, most of Anakin's more "obsessive" lines were said when Padmé wasn't present -- for example, when he tells Obi-Wan he finds her "intoxicating" and then when he tells Jar Jar that he's thought of her every day since they've parted. In terms of Padmé herself, he awkwardly compliments her when they first meet and I remember him saying that she looked exactly the same as his dreams, and, of course, the fireplace scene. It seems to me, though, that by the fireplace scene, Padmé is already falling in love with him but feels torn between her duty and her desires.

Also, Anakin is, in a way, the anti-"Nice Guy." And by "Nice Guy," I mean guys that secretly harbor a crush for a girl and help them out and are very sweet and friendly until a girl won't "put out" and then they get upset and call the girl a ***** or insist she led them on (even if they've never shown interest beyond friendship). Anakin's the opposite. His feelings are pretty intense, but from the get-go, he's very clear about them and he doesn't try to sugarcoat them. And when Padmé shoots him down, he still respects her and cares about her.

Those are some good points and I agree to an extent, but I still feel it was a tad misguided to so heavily reference back to Gone With the Wind. In fairness to Han, though, his behavior towards Leia is much, much improved by ROTJ (although a lot of people decry it as "boring," I don't agree). But I still think it was a mistake to reference back to them, given that their eventual fates are so different. For example, I think you could get away with tying Anakin-Padmé and Romeo-Juliet because they're star-crossed lovers who meet sad ends and make terrible mistakes. But with Rhett and Scarlett, they have an intense and very dramatic romance. But I wouldn't say it's particularly romantic given how dysfunctional it is. So referencing back to them, for me, kind of undermines the sense of romance in ESB a tad.

I never really got indifference from Padmé. From the get-go, she seems to be trying to suppress her reactions to him, for example, how she notes with surprise how much he's grown and then immediately says that he'll "always be that little boy from Tatooine" or how she says happily that her Jedi protector will look out for her but then shuts Anakin down during the conversation with Queen Jamilla. To me, it always seemed that there was a tension within her in that she's realized that Anakin's grown up (and she likes that) but she's trying to put him back in the "little boy" box because she's not allowed to "have" him. If that makes sense.

But the more Anakin pushes, the more she has to confront the fact that she doesn't see him as a little boy anymore and I think this is especially reinforced when Anakin (with surprising maturity) agrees to her wishes and stops pursuing her when she says they can't be together.

I agree with you here. I guess I just don't like the "tactics" (for lack of a better word) that Han uses to get Leia to come around.

That's fine. Not liking Anakin and Padmé is just as legitimate an opinion as liking it. I was just trying to lay out some reasons why I think it works. One of the big reasons that I, personally, can buy into it is that it's not presented as an ideal relationship, but rather one that has some major problems right from the beginning -- problems that play a huge role in ROTS. So I believe Anakin and Padmé do love each other, but I also see the unhealthy elements to their relationship that are really brought into focus by ROTS.

Don't worry -- I see what you mean. A lot of Han and Leia's romance is emulating older films where it's pretty romantic to have the guy be a little more confident and forceful (as opposed to Anakin's trial-and-error and awkwardness). I think it's normal to like it because it is, after all, a piece of fiction. I just, personally, can't get over it. I'm not saying that you're wrong to like it or I'm right. It's just the way we look at the film and whether we can buy into it or not.

I see what you're saying about the kiss, I really do. One reason I have a hard time overlooking it, though, is the setting -- Leia is literally stranded with Han on that ship. They're in a confined space with only C3PO (who can be deactivated) and Chewbacca (Han's friend) with them. And it just strikes me that Leia sometimes comes across as too...well...powerless is the word I'm going for here I guess. It just seems as though she never shows any initiative in the relationship in ESB.

In regards to the scene in the cockpit, I can understand Han shushing her. But I honestly heartily dislike the fact that he doesn't let her go. Especially after she says "let go" and "please" -- it wouldn't have made any noise for him to do this and it would have immediately silenced her protests (since she would have had nothing to protest).

I'm not saying Han's a predator (because I agree that he would have backed off if it had become a problem), but I dislike that Leia falls in love with him when he treats her like this. It's not something I find very romantic and instead it just seems as though Han is forcing her to acknowledge her feelings, with the implication that he knows more about her feelings than she does.

One of the reasons I do like Anakin and Padmé, though, is reflected in their first kiss. They stand at the railing side by side and Anakin touches her hand first, then her back, then she turns to look at him and he smiles before he leans in and they kiss. But I like that they're so open -- if Padmé doesn't like what he's doing, she can easily move away from him (she's not pressed against a wall) and she doesn't protest when he touches her -- instead she looks at him and leans into the kiss as well. And I like that she gets to show some initiative in the relationship as well, mostly in the second half where she goes with him, hugs him, and goes to see him. They're not perfect by any means but it feels like Padmé gets to be a bit more of an active participant.

You're open-minded and it was definitely interesting to read your points. But really, I know that I'm unlikely to change anyone's opinion (or for anyone to change mine) because so much of our opinions is based on gut-level reactions. I just felt like laying out some of the reasons I do like the Anakin-Padmé romance because I do genuinely think there are pieces there that can be appreciated, even if you find the whole thing unbelievable.

To me, Anakin's intense feelings for Padmé are really a manifestation of his loneliness and isolation among the Jedi and it explains a lot about why he has such strong attachment issues. It always struck me, for instance, that Anakin doesn't really have any Jedi friends (or really friends at all besides Palpatine) although he had friends as a kid on Tatooine. He has his master -- Obi-Wan -- of course, but it's not purely a friendship since there's a lot of other roles mixed up in that. For me, it helps to explain why he's so susceptible to turning in ROTS because he's invested so much into his relationship with Padmé, rather than the Jedi. In part, I think I like the ten year separation because it explains why Anakin developed so many issues. And I feel that if he had been in contact with Padmé during that time, he would have been much more balanced rather than so intense. Because even in the OT, I think Anakin/Vader has a tendency to be obsessive -- the crawl in ESB outright states as much in regards to Luke, for example.

In terms of the "martyr" argument, I wasn't trying to suggest that Padmé fell for him solely because she felt bad for him. Rather, I think she fell for him and then used the fact that he needed her as an emotional anchor of sorts to justify being with him. Because Padmé flat-out states that she won't let him give up his future for her. But I think the combination of her already being in love with him and thinking that she can help him (that she's not being "selfish" by being with him) is what finally allows her to take the plunge. Because Padmé strikes me as a very duty-bound person who wouldn't want Anakin to sacrifice all the good he could do for the galaxy to be with her. I think the fact that she sees such vulnerabilities in him, though, helps her to rationalize her choices. If Anakin needs her -- if she can be an emotional support to him as he goes to fight in the war and after he's lost his mother -- then she's not being "selfish" by marrying him and risking that he'll be kicked out of the Order due to their relationship.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not saying that Padmé is under any obligation to love him or anything, given what he's done. But rather, I think that (given her personality) she uses circumstances to justify her entering into a relationship with him once she has already fallen in love.

And yes, this has been fun!

 

I fee the same. If Anakin and Padme had been portrayed as Leia and Han 2.0, I believe I would have been disappointed by Lucas' lack of originality. Thankfully, he portrayed the two romances in different manners, based upon their personalities. After all, Anakin is a different personality from Han, despite both being "hotshot" pilots. And Padme is a different personality from Leia, despite both being responsible diplomats/politicians.

Are you saying that Padme was not above rationalizing what she might have seen as an unwise decision on her part? If so, I would agree.

 

Ha ha, I thought I was gonna let this "spirited discussion" rest, but, eh, might as well throw another two cents on the pile, right? Anyway, I thought you actually made some really good points in your last post, which is probably why I didn't respond right away.....there just wasn't too much for me to quibble with....BUT I'm sure I can find some things....

(And look! You inspired me to change my avatar and wave my Han/Leia banner proudly. Much to your chagrin, no doubt )

Anyway, here I go......

That's a totally fair point about his more "obsessive" lines being in her absence. It admittedly has been a couple years since I've watched AOTC from beginning to end, so it's possible I'm not remembering things completely accurately. BUT that said, the fireplace scene was still really intense and....well, creepy. And even if she had been starting to fall for him at that point, I feel like the things he was saying would be enough to pour a bucket of cold water on all that. But again, that could be just me. And really, when it comes down to comparing these two couples, and people's preferences for one or the other, it could really be as basic as "Well, I don't like my guys/girls like that, but I DO like them like this..." You know what I mean?

But anyhoo....

Okay, this is one those points you made that I have absolutely no rejoinder. In fact, it made me kinda tilt my head and go, "Huh. Never thought of it that way, but Anakin was pretty decent in that respect..." So, you totally scored points there (are we keeping score? Should we be? )

Yeah, again, I think you're taking the Rhett/Scarlett and Han/Leia comparison too seriously. I don't think we're supposed to be looking at it that closely. And in any event, by the time Han and Leia kiss? That whole dynamic more or less goes out the window anyway. I mean, with Rhett and Scarlett they have that push/pull "I love you, no I don't" thing going throughout their relationship. Ultimately, that's why Rhett gets fed up and leaves in the end. But after Han and Leia just give in to their feelings and kiss, that whole push-and-pull is over. They don't fight it after that. They calm down, and are basically pretty sweet to each other. So that's why it's really silly to keep harping on the Rhett/Scarlett thing, when by midway through ESB they're already veering away from that dynamic.

That makes perfect sense, actually. So I'll give you that she was never "indifferent" to him. But I still think she jumped into "deeply in love" really suddenly. And I still can't figure out when or how that happened. Okay, I guess perfect way for me to compare this? Okay, in that arena scene, when she "declares" her love before their possible impending death, I only know they're "in love" because that's what the script says. And that is what Padme tells him. But I don't really believe it, or sense it in any way.

Now go to the carbonite scene....I mean, man! That was just so intense. The longing gazes, the desperate kiss before being pulled apart.....then Leia calling out "I love you!" in the last moments....I mean, at that point, she didn't even need to say it. We could already tell. Because the story *showed* us they were in love with each other. Where as AOTC just seemed to *tell* us that. You know what I mean?

(And I know you take issue with Han's "I know" answer, but I really don't find it as "dickish" as you might. And I have my assortment of reasons, but I won't bore you with that now.

Totally legit point. I have nothing to add to that. *jots down another point for PiettsHat*

Okay, wait a second. When you say it like "stranded on a ship, a droid that turns off...the only other companion is Han's friend"---taken out of context and at total face value, that sounds pretty bad. And if she were stranded on a ship with a guy she barely knew, I would agree, it would be seem like an uncomfortable situation. (For instance--if Han had tried to pull this move at the end of ANH? Even I would've been like, "Dude, wtf are you DOING? That's just weird!" But by ESB she *does* know Han. And you have to believe that part of her attraction to him is not just based on hormones, or gratitude, or whatever...there's gotta be a little trust between them at this point. So I honestly don't think she feels like she's in a "threatening" situation at all. Or that she's "powerless". Honestly, I think her only fears are of the Empire trolling outside, not of Han. And when he *does* approach her for the kiss, she's nervous. But *of course* she is! I mean, when you think you're about to share your first kiss with someone (someone you actually *really* like), it's nerve wracking! But that's a normal, excited, human reaction. It's nerves, but it's not the same as some deep-seated fear. You know what I mean?

And I disagree about her never showing any initiative in ESB. That's just incorrect. She doesn't make the first move, certainly. But that's also common for people to be too shy or scared to do that. But once that first kiss is out of the way? She shows plenty of initiative. She plants an unsolicited kiss on the check in the cockpit (see avatar), then right after Han's torture, she immediately runs to his side, stroking his hair, kissing his forehead.....in the carbonite chamber, it's she who declares her love to him. So yeah, I can't say she doesn't show initiative.

Yeah, I guess he could've. But again, I think he was too distracted by what was making the Falcon shake around like that to give it much thought. He was shushing her in the moment. And again, when she does add "let go, please" he acts offended (which again, he *was* because didn't mean anything by it), and then does let her go. So it's not a big deal.

Again, I just don't see where he's treating her that badly. At least, he didn't treat her any worse than she treated him in the first few scenes. I mean, believe it or not, Leia is not some delicate, powerless person. And she gives as good as she gets as far as he's concerned. So it's not like she's some hothouse flower wilting in Han's dominating presence, you know? She can hold her own.

That's a good point about their first kiss. I can see how that might be nice. And it's good that Padme showed some initiative. But again, I argue that Leia did as well, once she let her guard down.

*curtsies* Well, thank you kindly. And you have once again shed even more light on their relationship. I honestly do enjoy debating with opposing points of view, as long as they remain civil. And you are definitely a good opponent in that sense. So I appreciate that.

I actually completely agree with this. Which is why I didn't have a problem necessarily with Anakin's attachment issues or neediness, I had more a problem with Padme's reaction to it all. In that she didn't react at all like I would've in a similar situation. But we've been through that already. I definitely agree with your take on Anakin, though. No doubt.

Okay, fair enough. To be honest, I think I was just a little to eager to *zing* you on that last one. But thanks for clarifying, that makes a lot more sense.
All right, are you sick to death of me yet?

And where the heck are my fellow H/L fans?? I guess that's what I get for taking up this fight in a prequel forum.

 

I like both couples, but I prefer Han and Leia.

I don't have a problem with the age difference between Anakin and Padmé. I actually think it's a nice change from the traditional romantic pairing of older man/younger woman that Padmé is older than Anakin. I've seen people talk about how it is "weird" that Padmé is a "cougar," but I hardly think a five-year age difference qualifies her as such. And "cougar" is a term I despise anyway.

I do believe both couples genuinely love each other. However, Anakin and Padmé's relationship is doomed from the outset, both for internal and external reasons. By that I mean: the overarching story dooms their relationship from the outset, what with Anakin turning into Darth Vader and all. But it's also doomed for internal reasons: both participants are too emotionally immature for their relationship to be stable. They've both been isolated from forming healthy relationships: Anakin because he's a Jedi, Padmé because she's been involved in politics since she was a child. She was probably groomed for that Queen position since birth. They find each other and the forbidden nature of their love makes it that much more exciting to them, so they marry and keep it secret. Anakin is always flying off to fight in some Clone Wars battle or another, and absence makes the heart grow fonder, etc. Had Anakin not turned to the Dark Side and Padmé not gotten pregnant, I have my doubts as to whether their relationship would have lasted, at least not without both of them doing some growing up.

Han and Leia get the happy ending that Anakin and Padmé don't, and can't, get. They're both damaged people who find each other in the midst of war. Fittingly, their relationship is combative. Han is used to women falling at his feet, not stubborn, prideful women who boss him around and deny their feelings. Leia lost everything in the destruction of Alderaan, and isn't looking for emotional attachments: she just wants to destroy the Empire. Han realizes that he's in love with her before she realizes it, and he forces her to face her attraction to him, and her demeanor softens. But it's not until she faces losing him, possibly forever, that she realizes she is in love with him.

Han and Leia's relationship will last because they complete each other, and neither one of them will put up with the other one's crap.

 

Very nicely put, maychild.

I was all ready to fall back into our ancient "PT dueling" from days of yore ) , but I actually really liked what you had to say about Anakin/Padme. Makes a lot of sense. And I find it interesting that if events for them had been different, you feel that they might not have lasted. I tend to agree with that. But anyway, I enjoyed reading your insight.

And of course, you'll get no argument from me about Han/Leia. But you also framed their relationship nicely.

And argh!!! I *hate* the term "cougar'!! It's like nails on a chalkboard to me. My bf is younger than me (by a larger gap than Anakin and Padme actually), and every time he calls me that--even in jest--I want to belt him in the mouth.

 

Let's face it. We live in a patriarchal society in which many believe that a man has to be older than a woman in a romantic relationship. And it's hard to let go of such beliefs.

 

Thanks! We probably agree on more than is immediately apparent. For the record, I rate the SW films individually rather than by trilogy; my favorite is an OT movie, but then so is my least favorite.

I'm glad you enjoyed reading my thoughts on both couples. I enjoyed reading yours as well. And yes, "cougar" is a term that drives me bat guano.

 

The relationship between Liam Payne and Cheryl Cole always gave me Padme and Anakin vibes btw.



Cheryl Cole was 24 when she met Liam Payne as a 14-year-old boy.
They had a relationship when Liam was in his 20s and they even have a son together.

They ARE real life Padme and Anakin in this regard lol.

Probably this case is even more extreme since both are 10 years apart - while Padme and Anakin only have 5 years of age difference.

 

There's no indication that it's anything but platonic on Padme's end in Episode I.
Padme and Anakin have a much smaller gap than Leia and Han. Admittedly, Leia was 19 when she met Han. And they didn't start a relationship until Leia was 22.
I'm more concerned about Anakin's conduct with Padme (largely poisonous in Episode II and III) than his age of 19 or their platonic friendship when he was 9.
Padme should've run from Anakin at the very least after the Tusken slaughter. And there were already some warning signs before then.

 

Holy thread necromancy batman

 

Its about the same gap in ages that my parents have.

 

I personally consider age, gender, ethnicity, religion, culture etc. to be irrelevant in a relationship, up to certain limits of course. I definitely never found anything wrong in Padmé's and Anakin's relationship. Well, other than that it failed in the end, obviously. Being a Sith and wanting to rule the galaxy is slightly different from being older, younger or having different skin color, IMO.

 

Yes, Padmé was 14, while Anakin was 9/10. But the thing is, Padmé didn't have any romantic feelings for Anakin in The Phantom Menace. In the movie, it was Anakin who had romantic feelings for Padmé, not the other way around. Padmé started falling in love with Anakin only in Attack of the Clones, when he was 20 and she was 25. So, I don't think their relationship is strange. In The Phantom Menace, she had a sisterly attitude towards him, she didn't have romantic feelings for him. And when Padmé started falling in love with Anakin, they were both adults who didn't see each other for 10 years. Nothing strange or weird to me.

 

OK, my two cents here:

-> Their interaction on the ship was just...Padmé being nice to a child who went from being a slave, competing in a dangerous race that almost kills him, having to leave everything he knew behind (including his own mother -- still in slavery, mind) to board a strange ship in outer space. Putting a blanket on him is the least she could do. She didn’t develop romantic feelings for him until he was 19 which is a few years older than the legal age of consent in most countries.

-> Their age difference, in-canon is around four years. Not that much of a difference. People have been known to marry their childhood sweethearts.

 

OK. But do you know what the "legal age" in the SW galaxy is? Considering that there are not only different cultures to consider but entirely different and alien species? For me, narrow Earth (correction, Western or rather European or American) standards simply don't apply. Which country's legal system would you have applied to the Galactic Republic or Empire? No matter what Lucas said, it's unrealistic, even highly ludicrous, to try to reduce an entire galaxy with an enormous number of cultures and customs, to the views of ONE single society on tiny Earth.

 

You're over thinking everything.