Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda??

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by NodNarbOen, Mar 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    This thread has gotten interesting again even though it doesn't resemble the topic (Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda?) in the slighest. :D

    Haakun,

    I'm with you. I agree about the serious editing that would be necessary in ROTJ. However, I think that it goes much, much deeper. Here's why.

    Let's look at "A New Hope".

    Obi-Wan lies to Luke and tells him that his former pupil named Darth Vader killed his father.

    Exactly what type of feeling is Kenobi trying to elicit from Luke? :confused:

    I mean, if I had the chance to go after the guy who killed my father and try to get some form of revenge, I think I would take it.

    Kenobi seems to be pushing Luke on in an attempt to go after Vader in a violent, vengeful way.

    "Learn about the Force, Luke." - Obi-Wan in ANH

    He is trying to get Luke interested in the Force and later into becoming a Jedi.

    Then what?

    Also, isn't he bringing about the wrong kinds of feelings in Luke like anger and aggression, violence and revenge? Talk about contradiction.

    I thought those were Dark Side traits??? :confused:

    "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense...never for attack." - Yoda to Luke in ESB

    Can anyone say mixed messages??? Pick one.

    Then, Kenobi (knowing that he has no escape from Vader) basically commits suicide right in front of Luke. Luke sees his new friend/mentor/father figure killed by the very guy that Luke believes to have also killed his father. Huh? What exactly is the goal here?

    Hmmm...

    Then, we get to ESB.

    Kenobi appears before Luke and essentially "orders" him to go to Degobah.

    "Luke!" "Luke!" "You will go to the Degobah system." - Obi-Wan to Luke in ESB

    Well, yes sir!!!

    Yet, Yoda seems quite reluctant to train Luke. He actually argues back and forth with the spirit of Kenobi until he (Yoda) finally gives in.

    This is their so-called master plan? :confused:

    The legendary Jedi Master seems to think the kid is a flop before he even gets started.

    Then, Luke wants to leave to go to Bespin to help his friends. Yet, they seem to want him to stay and finish his training until he is a Knight or close to it. Why?

    Send him to Vader as is. Since they think he (Anakin) can be redeemed, they should know that he won't kill Luke, right? Yet again, their dialogue suggests the complete opposite.

    "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." - Yoda

    "If you choose to face Vader you will do it alone." "I cannot interfere." - Obi-Wan

    If they wanted this, how come Yoda seems quite upset and surprised that Vader told Luke who he really was?

    "Told you did he?" - Yoda

    "Yes." - Luke

    "Unexpected this is...and unfortunate." - Yoda

    Shouldn't they (Obi-Wan/Yoda) have wanted and expected this?

    How come Obi-Wan seems to try to convince Luke that Anakin is long gone?

    "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force." "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader." "When that happened, the good person that was your father was destroyed." - Obi-Wan to Luke in ROTJ

    "There is still good in him." - Luke

    Kenobi wants to hear none of it...

    "He's more machine now than man." "Twisted and evil."

    Do those sound like the words of a guy who thinks Anakin can be redeemed? :confused:

    Does it get any more obvious? I mean, it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist, does it?

    Now that I think about it, he (Lucas) would need way more than editing. He would need totally different scenes and dialogue. Unfortunately, the last time I checked, Alec Guinness was dead.

    What I don't get, if this quote is accurate (it could be we are misinterpreting it, or the writer screwed up a little, or Lucas is nuts), is why not take advantage of Vader's confession?

    By telling Luke who he is, Obi-Wan and Yoda could tell Luke that he (Vader) must have told Luke the truth because he is reaching out. That he seems to be showing signs of regret and remorse. That he is vulnerab
  2. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I would like to get back to what I typed on page 22.

    I still would like to have someone paint for me the scenario in which Obi-Wan sees something in Anakin in Episode III (A movie where we all expect Anakin to be more mean and more evil than at any other time in the Prequel Trilogy), that would make him and Yoda think that Anakin could be redeemed and brought back to the Light Side?

    I can't think of any especially when you consider that Vader is literally foaming at the mouth with excitement when the opportunity to get Kenobi in "A New Hope" becomes a possibility.

    Does that sound like two guys who ended on good terms? There would be no rhyme or reason to the Obi-Wan thought process as far as thinking that Anakin could be redeemed.

    And with that, I bid you adieu for now?

    Be good...and may the Force be with you.
  3. yerykenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
  4. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
  5. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Melancholy is right, for once ;) . I don't know what GL's thinking. The entire OT is in direct contrast to what GL says about Obi-wan wanting to redeem Anakin.

    I hope GL doesn't mess up episode III by having it end with Kenobi saying something about Luke being able to redeem his father when he's older. That would be the biggest continuity error between all of the PT and OT.
  6. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
    "Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda??"

    Nobody is stronger then YODA in YODA PRIME!

    That's a FACT! why cause i said so. :D
  7. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> I still would like to have someone paint for me the scenario in which Obi-Wan sees something in Anakin in Episode III (A movie where we all expect Anakin to be more mean and more evil than at any other time in the Prequel Trilogy), that would make him and Yoda think that Anakin could be redeemed and brought back to the Light Side?

    Nobody wants to paint you a picture because until we see Episode III, you?ll never be convinced? So why waste the time? If anyone here wants to get the real scoop, however, you only have to pick up one of Joseph Campbell?s books or watch a Kurosawa film. And with that, I?ll leave you with this passage from the DVD liner notes from Akira Kurosawa?s film Sanjuro:

    Sanjuro often insults when he means to praise. The cinematic wrinkle here is that Kurosawa achieves irony in both words and images. The samurai mistake the chamberlain for a villain because they think he?s ugly. Some of them mistrust Sanjuro himself because unlike a proper samurai, he asks for food and money. The chamberlain?s wife seems soft and homiletic when she describes Sanjuro as an unsheathed sword, poised to strike at any time (even when it isn?t necessary): actually, she has his number. His final showdown demonstrates the horror of his business for all to comprehend. But Kurosawa?s eye makes the combat beautiful, just as his dramatic instinct makes it magnetic. Sanjuro is inspirational. That?s the crowing irony.
    />
    />/>
  8. haakun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 4
    I hope GL doesn't mess up episode III by having it end with Kenobi saying something about Luke being able to redeem his father when he's older.

    Same here.
  9. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Melancholy is right, for once. [face_mischief] -MobartZmuda

    Hey now!!! You know you love me. [face_love]

    Nobody wants to paint you a picture because until we see Episode III, you?ll never be convinced? So why waste the time?- bad radio

    How do you know nobody here wants to paint a picture for me, for all of us?

    How do you know I won't be convinced? I may be...

    The Kurosawa quote only works if Lucas somehow relays to us that that is what Obi-Wan was doing. I (and nobody else) sees any evidence of this. Are we supposed to read George's mind?

    Luke could have been spurred on in so many different and more positive ways. It doesn't wash. Personally, as big a Star Wars fan as I am, I doubt Lucas is this clever. Plus, there is such a thing as too clever, especially when nobody in the world will get it.

    Besides, this guy has trouble writing some of the basics. Irony might be a stretch for a guy who struggles to get even the simplist things across to an audience. Not to be mean, but look at PMT99. Do I need to say anymore?
  10. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I hope GL doesn't mess up episode III by having it end with Kenobi saying something about Luke being able to redeem his father when he's older.-MobartZmuda

    Well, get ready. Because if this thing, this idea about Obi-Wan knowing that Anakin can and would be redeemed turns out to be true, then I have no doubt that is how Lucas will do it. Simple, fast, cheap and pathetic.


  11. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm bored, so I decided to paint my own scenario.

    Episode III

    A sad, dejected Obi-Wan looks down at the infant boy. A small, simplistic smile covers the baby's face. For he has no idea what is to come, what he will see, what he will do.

    The tired Jedi warrior speaks.

    "It will be tough at first." "This life will be difficult, but it will harden you...make you strong."

    "One day your time will come." "You will work hard, and in the end, you...we will prevail."


    The baby gurgles and smiles again. He is completely oblivious to the Jedi's words. They seem to be spoken more to assuage the warrior himself rather than the newborn.

    "Yes, young Luke Skywalker." "One day." "One day you will develop the power." "One day, you will feel the Force...and then...then you will bring him back to us."

    "Rest now, rest."


    As he cradles the child against his chest, Obi-Wan looks out over the sands of Tatooine. Dry, bitter and never ending. Just ahead, a dwelling can be seen against the horizon. Soon, Luke would be there. Soon, he would be home.

    END
  12. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Melancholy , that's too cheesy.

    It's perfect for Star Wars!
  13. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> Besides, this guy has trouble writing some of the basics. Irony might be a stretch for a guy who struggles to get even the simplist things across to an audience.

    But Lucas didn?t write Empire or Jedi, Lawrence Kasdan did, and Larry is a big fan of Kurosawa:

    TESB] are about. My favorite director is Akira Kurosawa, and Star Wars was inspired by his film The Hidden Fortress, so George and I had an immediate connection there. All through Kurosawa?s movies you have the idea that it?s one thing to be physically adept and something else to be spiritually adept.

    ? Lawrence Kasdan, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    />
    />/>
  14. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    bad radioBut Lucas didn?t write Empire or Jedi
    />

    IMO, that's the reason for a lot of problems. GL didn't direct TESB or ROTJ either, which could account for a lot of GL says it's like this but the movies show this inconsistencies, because the those movies were written and directed by someone other than GL./>/>
  15. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Good points.

    But that still doesn't clear up GL's own inconsistencies with ANH. If GL intended for Obi-wan to be waiting around in order to redeem Anakin all along, then why would GL write it so that Obi-wan lies to Luke about his father? What is the point in that?

    If Luke thinks DV killed his father, then why would he want to redeem him?
  16. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    ANH is a stand alone movie.

    When it was made, GL didn't think he would be able to tell "the entire story." He didn't know SW would be such a hit, so he made ANH in a way that it could be watched without the viewer having any knowledge about episodes 1, 2, 3, or even 5 and 6.

    With ANH, GL figured it would be the only SW movie, so he didn't leave to many loose ends, so the viewer would be left with a 'completed movie.' Yes, DV escapes at the end, but that in no way takes away from the rebels victory. If someone knew nothing of SW, and they watched only ANH, they would probably think the rebels had basically won the war and not just an important battle. That's the way it was made, because if it had been made to show the rebels had only taken their first step towards victory, then it would have ended in a cliff hanger.

    Do the rebels win? What happens?

    With the assumption that ANH would be a single movie, and not part of prequels and sequels, that ending would have sucked because you would never know. Which ties in to why the DV and Luke connection isn't there, because for the saga, it's important, but for ANH as a stand alone movie, it is not.

    It would sort of be like if the SW saga ended with TESB. TESB is a great movie, but as a stand alone movie it wouldn't work.
  17. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    You're right Cubie_Hole
    I just wish GL would fess up and not try to pull one on us by claiming to have always known about DV and Luke.
  18. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4

    >>>> Besides, this guy has trouble writing some of the basics. Irony might be a stretch for a guy who struggles to get even the simplist things across to an audience.

    I should have responded to this a little better. With Empire and Jedi, initially Lucas wrote the first few screenplay drafts and subsequently handed the writing duties over to Kasdan. Larry then took what George had put forward and refined it, adding his own distinctive style. Bearing this in mind, consider how ROTJ?s story evolved.

    In the rough draft?written by Lucas?Vader is taking Luke to see the Emperor, and before they get to the Emperor?s throne room, Obi-Wan suddenly appears in their path. Kenobi explains he has come to save Vader, and that it?s Vader?s destiny to turn back to the good side and kill Palpatine. What?s more, Obi-Wan reveals that, one way or another, Vader will meet his end today?he will have to give up his life to kill Palpatine, and if he doesn?t, the Emperor will destroy both him and Luke. Obi-Wan also says that if Anakin so chooses to engage in the battle in the interest of the light, then he will become one with the good side of the Force and Obi-Wan will be able to help him retain his identity. However, if Anakin remains evil, then he will die at the hands of the Emperor and he will become one with the dark side of the Force, consequently losing all identity. Vader refuses to listen, asserting that it?s impossible to kill Palpatine. He continues on to the throne room with Luke, and Kenobi disappears.

    Now in the film, however, Obi-Wan?s attitude towards Vader seems quite different from his mind-set in the rough draft. Kenobi laments that Vader is more machine than man, ?twisted and evil.? Nevertheless, I submit that this was just Ben?s clever way of provoking a response in Luke. Ben ?insults when he means to praise,? which is Kasdan?s (and George?s) way of paying homage to Akira Kurosawa, and is just one of many tributes to the famous director that run rampant in all the SW films. Anyway, despite what others may say, Lucas, Kasdan, and Jedi?s director, Richard Marquand, do pull off the intended irony and do it well. When Luke confronts his father on Endor, Vader reveals that ?Obi-Wan once though as you do,? and in that moment Luke discovers Kenobi?s real motive for sending him to confront Vader. ?If Ben tried but couldn?t bring my father back to the good side,? Luke probably thought to himself, ?then he?s left it up to me to bring him back.? Then later in the movie when Luke has succeeded, and Anakin shows up alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda as a ghost, it?s as if this ending could be only ending and is what was intended by all the characters all along. Just like Kurosawa, Lucas ?achieves irony in both words and images.?

    >>>> If GL intended for Obi-wan to be waiting around in order to redeem Anakin all along, then why would GL write it so that Obi-wan lies to Luke about his father? What is the point in that?

    The point here is to give Luke something to live up to.
  19. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Nice explanation Bad radio , but the casual viewer isn't going to know anything about the rough drafts or that GL intended to pay homage to Akira Kurosawa with Old Ben's lines (quite frankly, I didn't either until I got on this board).

    GL claims that these movies are made for children. Therefore, he should have been far more clear on what Old Ben intended, for even the older and more wiser viewers aren't that literate and knowledgeable.
  20. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> GL claims that these movies are made for children. Therefore, he should have been far more clear on what Old Ben intended, for even the older and more wiser viewers aren't that literate and knowledgeable.

    Star Wars was designed for young people does not automatically make it bubble gum for the mind. He simply targeted an audience that had not yet formed their prejudices. Movie critics are adults, however, and Lucas is critically perceived as a purveyor of popular pap. Pauline Kael accused Star Wars of turning movies into toys. Critic David Thompson once wrote, ?I have never felt in a Lucas film that if I went out for a pee or a hot dog, I would miss anything. It is not in the nature of the films that there is anything so important there.?

    Lucas thinks most critics are unfit to pass judgment on any director?s work. It?s easy to be glib about Star Wars, he says?there are things he?ll criticize himself. ?But if it was nothing,? he muses, ?why did everyone like it so much? What we?re talking about here is effectiveness?the more people who see it, the more effective the film is.? Lucas wasn?t subtle about the message in Star Wars: there comes a time when you can?t hide from problems and you have to take responsibility for your actions. ?But because I don?t come out and say MESSAGE in big red letters, it goes right past everybody,? Lucas says.

    ? From Skywalking: The Life and Films of George Lucas
    />
    />/>
  21. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "The point here is to give Luke something to live up to."

    Which is to avenge his father's death as well as the deaths of his aunt and uncle by killing the man responsible for this...Darth Vader but Luke had no clue that his family's killer happens to BE his father until after his first duel with him ended which Vader told him so.

    Obi-wan's plan to redeem Anakin isn't made clear since he is misleading Luke into believing that Anakin was killed by Vader and is planting more seeds to Luke's revenge against Vader by sacrificing himself to Vader.
  22. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Melancholy , that's too cheesy.

    It's perfect for Star Wars! -Mobart Zmuda


    Actually, I find it to be quite Hemingwayesque. [face_mischief] However, I suppose that could just be ego. ;)

    IMO, that's the reason for a lot of problems. GL didn't direct TESB or ROTJ either, which could account for a lot of GL says it's like this but the movies show this inconsistencies, because the those movies were written and directed by someone other than GL.- Cubie_Hole

    He lives!!! [face_shocked]

    I agree, Cubie. Once this thing was successful (after ANH), Lucas should have been all over it with a fine-toothed comb whether he was going to direct/write them or not.

    You can get help with scripts but you can't just let people run wild. You have to have a vision where you are going and you have to know what it is you want to accomplish. You also have to have some semblance of boundaries within storylines especially when you are trying to sell this thing as parts of a greater whole.

    Bad Radio,

    I understand what you are saying and you make quite a few good points. The problem is Lucas. There is no way that people will buy this explanation. As far as Vader saying "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", it isn't a strong enough point for Lucas to hang his hat on.

    For all we know, Obi-Wan will try to reach Anakin sometime in Episode III when Kenobi believes that Anakin has not quite yet slipped away. Then, the duel.

    It could be that to which Vader is referring to when he says the line to Luke in ROTJ. When Anakin is injured and becomes (for lack of a better word) Vader, I think the general consensus (due to OT dialogue) is that Kenobi thinks him (Anakin) gone.

    How Lucas is going to get us to understand otherwise in Episode III, I just don't know???

    ?But because I don?t come out and say MESSAGE in big red letters, it goes right past everybody,?-George Lucas

    This is a very weak argument from him. So we are all suppose to think that everything has a deeper meaning? That everything is a lesson to be learned, or some knowledge to be had, or irony where there seems to be none?

    It's pretty hilarious when you can ascribe great meaning to something and yet never have to prove it.

    I for one am calling him out on it.

    In this life, sometimes you have to put up or shut up, George.

    I await Episode III...the second coming!
  23. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> For all we know, Obi-Wan will try to reach Anakin sometime in Episode III when Kenobi believes that Anakin has not quite yet slipped away. Then, the duel.

    Then why doesn?t Kenobi convey this to Luke? It would?ve, in effect, solidified your presupposed idea that Kenobi wanted Vader dead. ?I tried to bring him back,? Kenobi could have said to Luke, ?but your father couldn?t be saved. He tried to kill me.? Instead, he leaves it up to Luke to find this out on his own. Holding back this information, coupled with the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan never come right out a say that Vader has to be killed (instead they say that he must be confronted) and proceeding to put the blame on Palpatine, gets across to the audience that these two were trying to bring Anakin back through Luke.

    On top of that, in AOTC Yoda senses just how much pain Anakin is in when Shmi dies. Yoda knows just how close Anakin is to his family? And pity the person who tries to bring harm to someone in Anakin?s family. In other words, Yoda and Obi-Wan realized that Palpatine was pretty much screwed if Luke didn?t turn to the dark side, because then Palpatine would be forced to kill Luke, and they knew that Anakin wouldn?t allow that to happen.

    >>>> This is a very weak argument from him. So we are all suppose to think that everything has a deeper meaning? That everything is a lesson to be learned, or some knowledge to be had, or irony where there seems to be none?

    I think you?re just pissed that you didn?t see the irony from the outset. I mean c?mon, it?s all right there. First Obi-Wan says that Luke?s feelings about his father are absurd, and then in his parting words he says that Luke?s insight and feelings ?serve him well? and ?do him credit.?

  24. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    Melancholy and bad radio, I think you are both sort of right.

    I don't think GL intended for SW, specifically the OT, to be full of deeper meanings and for so many things to be the opposite of what you see.

    However, I think this view of SW was created by GL to keep the integrity of his story that he allowed other people to tell.

    Perhaps, GL intended for Obi Wan and Yoda to use Luke to redeem Anakin because they thought he was still good, etc. But in TESB and ROTJ, the story was guided by GL and told by others, so we get these complicated explanations of 'how it is', because GL, IMHO, doesn't want to admit that his story wasn't originally told in the way he intended.

    Since these movies are fiction, with creativity they can be changed in any and almost every way. I think that can be seen in the EU. I'm not advocating EU, because I don't care for it either, but I will admit that it's a good example how a little, or sometimes even a lot of far fetched, creativity can 'change' the perception of something.

    For me, it explains why there can be conflicts in GL's explanations, he's trying to put together what he intended to do and what he intended for someone else to do, but they didn't. I even think GL has to do this with himself sometimes.

    Take the ANH duel. Was it suppose to be an old man vs. a cripple old man? Or was it suppose to be an impressive duel that GL didn't or couldn't make the way he intended? If I remeber correctly, Qui Gon was 'old' in the TPM, but he didn't exactly fight like an old man. Of course a solution is easily discovered with a little creativity like: Oh! Well...Obi Wan had been in hiding and couldn't use the force because Vader and Palpitine would be able to zero in on him, so many years with practice had left him a little rusty. [face_plain]
  25. blage Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Cubie's right. ANH is stand alone...
    There are some things you can't explain away.
    The biggest gaff would be Luke's name.
    If Obi-Wan and Yodi are hiding the twins
    why didn't Luke get an alias.
    In ANH we didn't know Darth Vader was a Skywalker.
    He should have been named Luke Larrs
    and why would you hide him with Darth's
    half brother(Oh, that's the last place
    he'd think to look).
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.