Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda??

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by NodNarbOen, Mar 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    For all we know, Obi-Wan will try to reach Anakin sometime in Episode III when Kenobi believes that Anakin has not quite yet slipped away. Then, the duel. -Melancholy

    Then why doesn?t Kenobi convey this to Luke? It would?ve, in effect, solidified your presupposed idea that Kenobi wanted Vader dead. ?I tried to bring him back,? Kenobi could have said to Luke, ?but your father couldn?t be saved. He tried to kill me.?- bad radio

    Uhh?EXACTLY! Why doesn?t he? You're the one saying that this type of thing (knowledge between Obi-Wan and Yoda that Anakin can be redeemed) is going to occur in Episode III. That we will come to know that this is what Obi-Wan and Yoda have been planning all along. It wasn't me, it was you! I'm the one who laughs at this idea.

    I say, why not just tell Luke the truth from the beginning. Instead, they get hothead Luke in ESB who goes to Bespin with every intention of trying to kill Vader. Now, let?s say Vader decides to kill Luke during one of the hundred opportunities that he had. What would Kenobi and Yoda say to Luke?

    "Oops, sorry kid." "It didn?t go down the way we thought it would." "Sorry."

    It doesn?t work.

    Instead, he leaves it up to Luke to find this out on his own.-bad radio

    What purpose would that serve? Don?t tell me, I already know. NONE!!!

    Holding back this information, coupled with the fact that Yoda and Obi-Wan never come right out a say that Vader has to be killed (instead they say that he must be confronted) and proceeding to put the blame on Palpatine, gets across to the audience that these two were trying to bring Anakin back through Luke.

    That?s quite a stretch?even for you.

    ?Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor.? ?Yoda

    ?I can?t do it, Ben.? ?I can?t kill my own father.? - Luke

    Kenobi, hands resting on his legs.

    ?Then the Emperor has already won.? ?You were our last hope.? - Obi-Wan

    That is some pretty strong dialogue.

    Why doesn?t Kenobi think that Leia can be used to reach Vader emotionally? Because that is not what he (Kenobi) wants. He wants violence. He knows it is beyond Leia. The funny part is that it is beyond Luke's abilities too. But, desperate men...

    On top of that, in AOTC Yoda senses just how much pain Anakin is in when Shmi dies. Yoda knows just how close Anakin is to his family? And pity the person who tries to bring harm to someone in Anakin?s family. In other words, Yoda and Obi-Wan realized that Palpatine was pretty much screwed if Luke didn?t turn to the dark side, because then Palpatine would be forced to kill Luke, and they knew that Anakin wouldn?t allow that to happen.

    We can?t really say that yet. What about Padme? She means more to Anakin than anyone, including his mother. We don?t know what happens to her. What if Palpatine kills her? What if he kills her in front of Anakin no less? Unless you have the Episode III script, you are stretching it with that one. You are slowly entering PMT99 territory.

    This is a very weak argument from him. So we are all supposed to think that everything has a deeper meaning? That everything is a lesson to be learned, or some knowledge to be had, or irony where there seems to be none? ? Melancholy

    I think you?re just pissed that you didn?t see the irony from the outset. I mean c?mon, it?s all right there.- bad radio

    Didn't see it? Don't make me laugh! What's to see? Like PMT99, you see things that aren't there.


    First Obi-Wan says that Luke?s feelings about his father are absurd, and then in his parting words he says that Luke?s insight and feelings ?serve him well? and ?do him credit.?- bad radio

    So exactly when does Luke supposed to believe Obi-Wan when he talks? Once every three sentences? Every four? Where does the lying end and the truth begin? How is Luke supposed to know the difference? Does he have a magic decoder ring?


  2. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> Uhh?EXACTLY! Why doesn?t he? You're the one saying that this type of thing (knowledge between Obi-Wan and Yoda that Anakin can be redeemed) is going to occur in Episode III. That we will come to know that this is what Obi-Wan and Yoda have been planning all along. It wasn't me, it was you! I'm the one who laughs at this idea.

    I?m not quite sure what you?re trying to say here? I was simply suggesting that if Ben truly wanted Vader dead then he would have driven any ideas of redemption out of Luke?s head. He would have mentioned to Luke that he had tried and failed to bring Anakin back: ?You can?t save him Luke. I tried once, but he?s too evil. What you?re suggesting just can?t be done.? Instead, Ben is vague as to what Luke should do: ?You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.? Why can?t Luke just blow up Vader?s ship or blow up the Death Star while both Vader and Palpatine are still on it? There are a ton of ways that Luke could?ve simply killed Vader, so why is it so important that Luke confront him? Because Ben and Yoda know that Anakin is the only one who can eliminate Palpatine. That is Anakin?s destiny, not Luke?s. Anakin is the Chosen One.

    It?s highly amusing to see that you continue to leave the blinders on.

    >>>> I say, why not just tell Luke the truth from the beginning. Instead, they get hothead Luke in ESB who goes to Bespin with every intention of trying to kill Vader.

    And you?re the one who says I see things that aren?t there. Watch TESB again. Luke goes to Bespin to save his friends, not to kill Vader. FI?

    >>>> Now, let?s say Vader decides to kill Luke during one of the hundred opportunities that he had. What would Kenobi and Yoda say to Luke?

    That point is irrelevant because it?s shown in the films that Vader isn?t evil enough to kill his own son. Even if Luke did die, Leia was next in line to take Luke?s place:


    ? George Lucas, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    />
    />/>
  3. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I was simply suggesting that if Ben truly wanted Vader dead then he would have driven any ideas of redemption out of Luke?s head. He would have mentioned to Luke that he had tried and failed to bring Anakin back. ? bad radio

    He doesn?t exactly try to put the idea that Anakin can be redeemed into Luke?s head either. In fact, he does just the opposite. Lucas has to convey this to the audience a lot better than what we see in the PT.

    We would need to see a scene with Luke and Kenobi?s spirit where Luke tells Obi-Wan that he gets what he?s trying to do.

    Kenobi has that opportunity in ROTJ. When Luke says??There is still good in him,? why doesn?t Kenobi pounce? If what you say is true, that is the moment he has been waiting for. He should tell Luke to try and get him (Anakin) back. There is no reason to play him any further. Instead, he says ?He?s more machine now than man.? ?Twisted and evil.?

    Has Kenobi ever thought that Luke might not get irony? This belief is pathetic. Is one really conveying irony if nobody gets it???

    Lucas has said just the opposite. He told Moyers that Luke stops listening to those around him and starts listening to himself. That he knows what he has to try and do. By saying that, Lucas is pretty much saying that Kenobi and Yoda don?t know what they are talking about. He?s saying that Luke trusts his ?inner voice? and deals with the situation his own way. The word irony never comes up in the interview. An interview that is easily the best that Lucas has ever given. Ever.

    Does Lucas expect us to go watch Kurosawa films in order to ?get? Star Wars? I?ve seen his stuff, it is overrated.


    Instead, Ben is vague as to what Luke should do: ?You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.? ? bad radio

    Again, why be vague when you can be direct, especially then (ROTJ) as this thing is coming to a head? Directness, not another attempt at irony, is the key now.

    I don?t think I have ever heard Lucas use the word irony in my entire life and I was around when ?A New Hope? came out. I need a lot more than the annotated screenplays. Believe me, we all do.

    Why can?t Luke just blow up Vader?s ship or blow up the Death Star while both Vader and Palpatine are still on it? There are a ton of ways that Luke could?ve simply killed Vader. ? bad radio

    Luke couldn?t kill Vader if the very universe itself depended on it.

    so why is it so important that Luke confront him? Because Ben and Yoda know that Anakin is the only one who can eliminate Palpatine. That is Anakin?s destiny, not Luke?s. Anakin is the Chosen One.

    Why would Luke confronting Vader have anything to do with eliminating Palpatine unless the two of them (Yoda, Kenobi) knew something? Kenobi doesn?t even believe in the prophecy. Watch Episode I. There is nothing in Episode II to make us think he does now, either. What exactly do you think we are going to see in Episode III that would change this?

    It?s highly amusing to see that you continue to leave the blinders on.- bad radio

    Don?t try to be witty. It doesn?t suit you. It doesn?t take blinders to not see what you?re seeing. Nobody on this planet is seeing what you?re seeing.

    Watch TESB again. Luke goes to Bespin to save his friends, not to kill Vader. ? bad radio

    Don?t be a dink. You know that Luke has every intention of confronting Vader if he (Vader) is there.

    ?If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone.? ?I cannot interfere.? ? Obi-Wan to Luke in ESB

    That point is irrelevant because it?s shown in the films that Vader isn?t evil enough to kill his own son. Even if Luke did die, Leia was next in line to take Luke?s place: - bad radio

    Again, how would Yoda and Kenobi know this???

  4. yerykenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    UP

    I think this is a very interesting topic
  5. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    I think this is a interesting thread also (the whole Ben wanting to redeem Vader thing, not Anakin being stronger than Yoda). BadRadio convinced me to believe that Ben wanted Luke to redeem Vader.

    I've got a very similiar thread started on whether Luke was trained to kill Vader over in the classic trilogy forum, which is slightly more on topic. It can be reached here

  6. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    BadRadio convinced me to believe that Ben wanted Luke to redeem Vader.- MobartZmuda

    How?

  7. Kung-Fu-Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 4
    Why the hell would Yoda be weaker then anakin? Yoda would kick the........poop.......out of little whiney, bratty, ani!

    -Yoda [face_devil]
  8. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Well Melancholy, it's not just Bad Radio who convinced me to change my opinion, but GL's comments on the matter as well. I like that whole "irony" idea Bad Radio has, although it is a bit hard to believe at first. But since GL did say that Ben had been waiting for Luke to redeem Anakin in that one quote, I've got to side with GL since it is his story. You raise some very good points in the counter argument Melancholy and if you'll remember I used to believe like you. Unfortunately believing Ben wants Luke to kill Vader does raise a lot of "issues" between the films and GL. I just choose to *blindly* follow GL like a sheep--I know that lines coming so I'll save you the time :D

    I've got a little theory of my own that tries to tie what's scene in the movies with what GL says. It makes pretty good sense for now, but episode III might change that.

  9. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Well Melancholy, it's not just Bad Radio who convinced me to change my opinion, but GL's comments on the matter as well.

    But, it?s comments from a book. It is a lot easier to be misquoted in a book than it is in a televised interview. Nothing in the annotated screenplays matches up to what Lucas tells Moyers.

    I like that whole "irony" idea Bad Radio has, although it is a bit hard to believe at first.

    I have no problem with it per se. If anything, it strengthens my Anakin/Vader?s superior power, ability, strength argument by the idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan send Luke to sort of try and trigger long dormant feelings in Anakin?not to try and beat him.

    But since GL did say that Ben had been waiting for Luke to redeem Anakin in that one quote, I've got to side with GL since it is his story.

    Let?s look at that quote for a minute.

    ____________________________________________

    The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film.

    ? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    ____________________________________________
    The quote seems pretty straightforward right? Well?.

    Look at it this way.

    All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi.

    (a)And redeem his father.

    See, that could mean that Obi-Wan is waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi. (STOP) Then (on his own), Luke redeems his father. (STOP)

    See what a few well placed periods can do.

    That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film. ? Lucas

    We don?t know this in any films. Not in IV, V or VI.

    Unfortunately believing Ben wants Luke to kill Vader does raise a lot of "issues" between the films and GL.

    What we have to remember is that the films should always be the main reference. Kenobi sees Vader almost as a different being. He seems to see Anakin as so far gone that he is literally a different entity.

    Obi-Wan in Return Of The Jedi

    ?Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force.? ?He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader.? ?When that happened, the good man that was your father was destroyed.?

    I just choose to *blindly* follow GL like a sheep--I know that lines coming so I'll save you the time.

    I wouldn?t say that. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just be true to yourself by making sure it is well thought out.

    My point in all of this is that if this theory is true/correct, there should?ve been a point where Obi-Wan and Yoda came clean. That never happens. Remember that Yoda seemed upset that Vader told Luke that he was Anakin. Why not take advantage of that?

    That should have been a signal to Obi-Wan and Yoda that their plan was working. Yet, they seem to want violence. Obi-Wan even talks Luke out of the idea that there is still good in Anakin/Vader.

    "There is still good in him.? ? Luke in ROTJ

    ?He?s more machine now than man.? ?Twisted and evil.? ? Obi-Wan in ROTJ

    I mean, at what point do you stop with the irony? Why send mixed messages to Luke? The idea has no merit. Its borderline retarded. All it does is put Luke in danger. For cryin? out loud, he turns himself in to Palpatine!!!

    Say Anakin doesn?t respond. How do Obi-Wan and Yoda know he will? What are they?gods???

    I've got a little theory of my own that tries to tie what's scene in the movies with what GL says. It makes pretty good sense for now, but episode III might change that.

    I want to read this theory.
  10. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    Alright, good to see you back Melancholy . Sorry for my delayed response, but I've also been busy. A few months ago I posted a short-lived topic in the classic trilogy forum about Luke not being trained to kill Vader that can be reached by clicking here

    The theory is still incomplete and like I said before, the direction GL takes for episode III could override it.

    Here's a brief summary though in case you don't want to read the whole thing (it's very, very long). :)

    My theory is that Luke was not being trained by Yoda and Obi-wan as a weapon to kill Vader and the Emperor. Instead, Luke was trained to redeem Anakin. Yoda and Obi-wan still believed that Anakin is the chosen one, even after he goes to the darkside in III, but since Obi-wan is unable to bring Anakin back to the lightside by himself (we know he tries and fails to do so in episode III from Vader's own words), at the end of episode III (probably after Padme has passed on [face_shocked] ) Old Ben and Yoda realize that the only way to reach Anakin now is through the ones he loves or would love unconditionally *if* he knew of them. Since the twins are mere infants, Old Ben and Yoda are forced to hide out for twenty years so that the twins can come of age (as a small child or infant, neither of the twins would really understand what they are being asked to do). This reasoning also explains why Luke and Leia are not trained from birth. Luke and Leia do not need to be all-powerful force users that can easily take out the Emperor and Vader, they (well Luke) only needs to be trained to believe the impossible is possible. This is because Luke needed to understand that since anything is possible, even an evil Sith Lord like his father can still have good in him and be redeemed. This also explains why Luke and Leia were raised in good families and allowed to form attachments (the very opposite of the traditional Jedi ways). If Luke and Leia are raised as traditional Jedi, they won't form any attachments to their families, and thus the likelihood of them trying to redeem their father instead of killing him is greatly declined. Consequently, Luke and Leia are raised in good families so that they will form strong attachments to their loved ones, particularly their father.
  11. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Yes because he is the chosen one of the force and he attacked dooku in a great risk of danger.
  12. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Mobart,

    I did go over and read the whole thing. It is good?very good. Well thought out.

    The problem is Lucas. The flip flopping. I would still need to see something (a big something) in Episode III that shows us that Kenobi and Yoda believed Anakin could be brought back. You, I or anyone else for that matter, should not have to go to the annotated screenplays for our answers.

    I don?t believe that Kenobi ever believed in the prophecy or in the idea that Anakin is/was the Chosen One. He never seems to believe it in Episode I and seems no more willing to believe it in Episode II. Lucas would have to bring the character around 180 degrees in Episode III.

    Now to Yoda. Well, if he believes that Anakin is the Chosen One, why was he the only one on the council to continue to think it was a bad idea for him to be trained at the end of Episode I? How can he believe that Anakin can restore balance to the Force without any training? Without the ability to feel and control the Force? He should be the one pulling for him, breaking the rules. He should have the foresight. Right? It makes no sense.

    Yoda was very upset that Vader told Luke who he was. Why? By telling Luke who he was, Yoda should then realize that Anakin is reachable. Take advantage. Tell Luke to try. There is no way; I emphasize no way that Luke can deal with Palpatine without his father doing it for him.

    Kenobi is even worse. Luke gets it. Why browbeat him? He?s going to try and turn him. Why send Luke there with mixed thoughts in his head? What?s to be gained? In my opinion, it only puts Luke in serious danger.

    Believe me, I like this idea better. I don?t want Kenobi and Yoda mean, vindictive and vicious. But, the way its done, it leaves a bad taste. Nobody will really buy it and I have trouble seeing a scenario where Lucas could make it work without it coming off real tacky.
  13. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm reading the responses to your topic. I think Padme Bra makes good points right there on the first page.

    It's so overly done, especially by Kenobi. It's okay in ANH, and ESB. But by ROTJ, they (Yoda, Obi-Wan) should have come clean.

    As I have always said, Vader screws himself. By telling Luke he's Anakin, he takes a huge gamble. When Luke refuses to go with him, he is backed into a corner. He won't kill his son and yet he feels trapped to his dark side beliefs, to the Sith way, to Palpatine.

    I could throw an even bigger monkey wrench into this thing with the thought that Anakin had to go over to the dark side in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

    The prophecy states that the dark side will overwhelm the light side and the galaxy before balance is eventually restored.

    In that scenario, Anakin comes off as more victim than villain.

    I hope Lucas is really thinking about all this while he works on Episode III.
  14. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not sure which thread I should post a reply to you in, Melancholy, so I'll try this one. I know that one MAJOR fault of my theory is that Obi-wan and Yoda never come clean to Luke about what they really want him to do, at least not on screen. But there's still the possibility that they do in fact explain to Luke what they want him to do in ROTJ, it's just that the audience is not shown this. The scene between Obi-wan and Luke ends while the two are still talking--Obi-wan didn't fade away again. Perhaps Obi-wan did encourage Luke that he was making the right decision, but since it is only a movie after all, GL would not want the audience to hear this or else there would be no surprise at the end of the film.

    An example of Luke being told what he did or did not do right and yet the audience is not clued in on it is Luke's "failure at the cave". Yoda tells Luke to remember his failure at the cave, but we are never told explicitly why he failed at the cave, which has resulted in numerous fan theories to explain it. But Luke does know what Yoda's talking about--"But I've learned so much since then".

    While this is yet another "stretch", I find it plausible.
  15. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    "I would still need to see something (a big something) in Episode III that shows us that Kenobi and Yoda believed Anakin could be brought back. You, I or anyone else for that matter, should not have to go to the annotated screenplays for our answers."

    I agree with you completely. It's just that as of right now, taking what GL has said and what the saga has shown in the PT and the OT, we are left with a major continuity error when it comes to why Luke was not raised as a Jedi and instead placed into the Lars family. But I do think episode III could clear this up quite easily by having a scene towards the end explaining why Obi-wan and Yoda decide to hide Luke and Leia rather than train them from birth (the reason is not that Vader would have sensed their force presence if they were trained, for Yoda could have easily taken them to Dagobah and trained them there without any problems).

    I think we might see a scene in episode III where Obi-wan tells Yoda that he can no longer reach Anakin, he's too far gone. I think that Yoda and Obi-wan will realize that the must "fight fire with fire" and use Anakin's attachments to his loved ones as a strength, not a weakness. And that would explain why Luke and Leia are raised in good families and allowed to form attachments rather than given the traditional Jedi upbringing.

    I find it hard to rationalize their decision otherwise. Yoda knew that Anakin's attachment to his mother was not good back in TPM and by episode III he will know that one of the major reasons Anakin falls to the darkside is because of his attachments to his mother and Padme. So why wouldn't Yoda and Obi-wan make sure that Luke and Leia are given the traditional Jedi upbringing so that they are not tempted to go the darkside because of their attachments to their loved ones like their father?

    Having Yoda and Obi-wan believe that Anakin is the chosen one and that his children must be raised in good families so that they form attachments and thus are able to redeem him is the only way I can make sense of all of it.

    "I don?t believe that Kenobi ever believed in the prophecy or in the idea that Anakin is/was the Chosen One. He never seems to believe it in Episode I and seems no more willing to believe it in Episode II. Lucas would have to bring the character around 180 degrees in Episode III."

    I think GL has proven in the OT that he can and will have characters make a complete 180 degree turn. Examples: Han in ESB versus Han in ROTJ; Leia in ANH and ESB versus Leia in ROTJ; Lando in ESB versus Lando in ROTJ; Vader is ANH and ESB versus Vader in ROTJ; Luke in ANH versus Luke in ESB versus Luke in ROTJ; and of course, Obi-wan in ANH versus Obi-wan in ROTJ. Most of these examples of character "growth" have greatly transformed the character from film to film.

    "Now to Yoda. Well, if he believes that Anakin is the Chosen One, why was he the only one on the council to continue to think it was a bad idea for him to be trained at the end of Episode I? How can he believe that Anakin can restore balance to the Force without any training? Without the ability to feel and control the Force? He should be the one pulling for him, breaking the rules. He should have the foresight. Right? It makes no sense."

    Mace was also vocally against Anakin being trained. You also have to remember that Yoda doesn't even know what the prophecy means and he's afraid of the consequences it might have on the galaxy. He allows Anakin to be trained because he has been convinced by the events of TPM and Qui-gon's strong words that 'it is the will of the force'--and a Jedi is not going to obstruct the will of the force.
  16. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Mobart,

    Most of my response is in the other OT thread. I do have some comments for here regarding Mace and Yoda.

    Mace was also vocally against Anakin being trained. You also have to remember that Yoda doesn't even know what the prophecy means and he's afraid of the consequences it might have on the galaxy. He allows Anakin to be trained because he has been convinced by the events of TPM and Qui-gon's strong words that 'it is the will of the force'--and a Jedi is not going to obstruct the will of the force.

    Mace changed his mind at the end of TPM. All of the members of the Jedi Council agreed that Anakin should be trained. That is, all but Yoda. He was still against it at the end of TPM.

    "Agree with you the Council does." "Your apprentice Skywalker will be." - Yoda

    "Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight the Council does." "But, agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner, I do not!" - Yoda

    I think Yoda knows more about the prophecy than any of the other Jedi. Training Anakin carefully should've been the objective. I don't see what is to be accomplished by not training him?


  17. abenice1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Melancholy
    I have been reading some of your post, and it is clear that you think that Vader is more powerful then Luke..... Well, whether that is true or not!!! Who cares he still lost!!! Sidious even stated that he Luke could destroy him and Vader!!! Luke whooped Vader but in RTOJ.... Whether that is because he wasn't given it his all or because he couldn't bring himself to kill his son doesn't matter. The fact is: he lost!!! Fair and square!!! Man to Man!!!!
  18. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Melancholy,

    I have been reading some of your posts, and it is clear that you think that Vader is more powerful then Luke.....


    I don?t say it. George Lucas says it. Last time I checked, he created the damn thing! I just happen to agree with him. :D

    Well, whether that is true or not!!! Who cares he still lost!!!

    Well, I would like you to explain to me how one can lose at something when one is not even trying to win. [face_laugh] :confused:

    Sidious even stated that he Luke could destroy him and Vader!!!

    This is not what he meant. As Anakin's son, he is automatically a threat because of who he is. It speaks to a possible Anakin weakness (i.e. love for his son) than it does to Luke's abilities.

    Luke whooped Vader butt in RTOJ....

    Luke didn?t whoop anything. He (Vader) took a dive. Here, I will make it easy for you. You won?t have to read this whole thread.

    Go to this page. Page 20

    Read my last five posts on this page.

    Whether that is because he wasn't given it his all or because he couldn't bring himself to kill his son doesn't matter.

    Of course it matters! It?s all that matters. [face_shocked]

    The fact is: he lost!!! Fair and square!!! Man to Man!!!!

    Like I said before, you can?t lose something you?re not trying to win.
  19. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If Vader wasn't trying to win, then he shouldn't be fighting Luke in the first place. Besides, Vader didn't take a dive because he was losing his footing while Luke is pounding him to the ground.
  20. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    [edited]

    YJ edit: Personal insults aren't necessary.
  21. WJTW Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before.

    Vader DID get Palpatine's permission to look for Luke (hah... look for Luke.). The Emperor said "He'll be a great asset. Can this be done?" He means "Go find Luke and turn him to the dark side."

    As for Vader being more powerful than Palpatine... that is not possible. If I were Vader, "I'd" have already struck him down. Why didn't "I" do that? Scared? Hey, I am more powerful than palpatine, I have no need to bow down to him and say "Yes, My Master".
    And did you see the way he strangle those Admirals and Captains? He could've just as easily done so to the hologram Palpatine, and I don't expect Palpatine's lightning can be used through the hologram system. Would've fried the system wouldn't it?

    Another thing is that he might be completely under the control of Palpatine, just as in the case of Luke in ROTJ. Luke only stopped trying to kill Vader when a spark of the light side got into his mind. Vader only betrayed the Emperor because of the same reason, and not because he was more powerful.
    And Palpatine was busy eletrocuting Luke. I'm assuming that the Force energy used for Lightning would be too drained for him to sense Vader approaching from behind. You can tell (maybe) that he was completely taken by surprise (and taken by Vader and thrown into the core.).

    And vader didn't use his mind to kill. He used Force Grip.

    WJTW

    PS: I know the message I'm answering might be very old. But it is easy to tell. The message is on the first page.
  22. WJTW Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    As for higher medi-chlorian count = stronger, that is true, PARTIALLY. It is the same thing with this: "A lightsabre can cut through anything, save for another lightsabre blade."
    The above info about lightsabre is quite misleading.
    What I'm trying to say is, a lightsabre has the potential to cut through anything. It doesn't mean I can just cut through a 50 cm thick durasteel door in a single, effortless swipe. It's the same thing with Qui-Gon and the door he was trying to cut through in the Trade Federation's ship.
    Now, high medi-chlorian count doesn't mean I'll instantaneously be able to kill anyone. Otherwise, why is the boy Anakin still bothering with Selbulba, when he could've easily killed him? Ok, mentioning the boy Anakin wouldn't be reasonable or logical. But it is. I'm trying to point out that without learning anything much, you can't do anything. If Anakin was that capable, why wasn't he 'promoted' to Jedi Knight, and still a Padawan? Because 'much to learn, he has.'
    That also explains why Dooku could win Anakin, even with his double sabres (why can't he just use both sabre at once is beyond me. He has to use one at a time.). Anakin is not, well, learned enough.

    Here's another point. Luke has a lower medi-cl count as compared to Anakin. Why, then, was he able to overwhelm Anakin/Vader on the DeathS2?

    WJTW
  23. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    [edited]

    YJ edit: Personal insults aren't necessary.
  24. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Let's stop calling people dumb. [face_plain]
  25. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Vader DID get Palpatine's permission to look for Luke (hah... look for Luke.). -WJTW

    No, he did not. He was looking for Luke long before ESB. He was looking for him for 2/3 of the movie before he even talked to Palpatine (hologram).

    As for Vader being more powerful than Palpatine... that is not possible. - WJTW

    I'm afraid it is very possible as well as being true.

    I have no need to bow down to him and say "Yes, My Master". - WJTW

    Oh boy! [face_laugh] Vader folows him because he believes in the Sith "Rule of Two." He knows that one day all that Palpatine has will be his. There is no need nor desire to kill him until he (Palpatine) tries to kill his son.

    Another thing is that he might be completely under the control of Palpatine, just as in the case of Luke in ROTJ. Luke only stopped trying to kill Vader when a spark of the light side got into his mind. Vader only betrayed the Emperor because of the same reason, and not because he was more powerful.- WJTW

    Yikes!!! [face_shocked] You and PMT99 may be related. [face_mischief]

    And Palpatine was busy eletrocuting Luke. I'm assuming that the Force energy used for Lightning would be too drained for him to sense Vader approaching from behind. You can tell (maybe) that he was completely taken by surprise (and taken by Vader and thrown into the core.). - WJTW

    I am on the floor with laughter.

    And Vader didn't use his mind to kill. He used Force Grip.- WJTW

    Force grip? Funny, I don't see him gripping anybody :confused:But seriously, thanks for the laughs.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.