Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda??

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by NodNarbOen, Mar 23, 2002.

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  1. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    "A lightsabre can cut through anything, save for another lightsabre blade." -WJTW

    There are plenty of things a lightsaber cannot cut through. As far as another lightsaber, a Sith lightsaber, with its artificial crystal, can sometimes cut through a natural crystal blade (A Jedi's).


    That also explains why Dooku could win Anakin, even with his double sabres (why can't he just use both sabre at once is beyond me. He has to use one at a time.). Anakin is not, well, learned enough.- WJTW


    Dooku beats Anakin because he is a twenty year old padawan while Dooku is a legendary Jedi Master who was trained by Yoda and has spent the last ten years studying the Dark Side of the Force.

    Here's another point. Luke has a lower medi-cl count as compared to Anakin. Why, then, was he able to overwhelm Anakin/Vader on the DeathS2? - WJTW

    Luke didn't overpower anyone. Really, read the thread. It might be the best thing you ever do.
  2. Sciwalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    Well, after Luke cuts Vaders arm off, he is VERY close to killing him. He would have had no problem striking him down while Vader was on his back.

    If you read all of my posts on page one, I think you could deduce that basically, I was saying that Vader throws the duel because when push comes to shove, he will not murder his son. I am not saying that Luke doesn't attack furiously, but I still think that Vader would have had no problem had he wanted to end it. He takes a dive.


    When I read something like this, I wonder what movie you were watching, because you completely missed the point of Return of the Jedi.

    When Luke uses the Force choke in the beginning, it is not a sign of him being a wimp. It is a sign of how dangerously close he is too losing what it means to be a Jedi. It's a Dark Side thing. This is pointed out later when Luke gets shot in the bionic hand. He covers it up, but the point is RAMMED home later in the movie, when Luke has Vader completely on the ropes and is about to do him in, then looks at the gloved hand and Vader's wiry stump.

    Luke is stronger than Vader, because he had the strength to go right up to the Dark Side, then reject it at the moment of truth. A strength Anakin lacked, or there never gets to be a Darth Vader.

    Unfortunately, because we are dealing with a storymaker who lies to himself as well as us, you will get some backup from George Lucas himself on what you think.

    He's tricked himself into say that this whole thing is Anakin's story, but the OT, it's Luke's story. You need to remember that.
  3. Sciwalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    But what he fails to realize is that seeing Luke in ANH (really, the time after ANH and before ESB when Vader finds out that it was Luke who destroyed the Death Star and he begins his obsessive search to find him while concealing this from Palpatine), brings up feelings in Vader that he may have chosen the wrong path. He begins to question himself, which is the key to all of this.

    There's only one problem with your argument is that it is based on a supposition not supported by anything in the movies.

    You have repeatedly said that Vader concealed his search for Luke from the Emperor. I'm sorry, I just reread the dialogue from the Hologram chat Vader and the Emperor had.

    "We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker."
    "Yes my master."

    Where do you get ANY concealment from that scene?
  4. Sciwalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    ust a thought, but is a person who exhibits mastery of one facet of a goup of skills more powerful than someone who is adept at all of them, but may not have complete mastery of any of them?

    ..again, an athletic metaphor may help to illustrate. One boxer has punching power second to none while the other boxer has good skills in all other area of boxing but only slightly above average punching power. Who wins? Of course the first fighter can end the fight with one punch, but the other fighter has the skills to potentially avoid that one puch and fight a prolonged, more strategic fight..in which case, he will probably win. Is one more powerful than the other? Not really, their power lies in different areas and applications.

    Personally, I like to think the more balanced individual will come out victorious because they have more tools at their disposal.


    Ali beat George Foreman. Ali beat Joe Frazier. Cassius Clay beat Sonny Liston. And the list goes on and on.

    A real boxer beats a bruiser any day. Rope a Dope.
  5. WJTW Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Er... Melancholy, if you were to read my posts in full, you would have realised that I am aware of all the things you've mentioned.

    I mentioned that the lightsabre has the potential to cut through anything. The potential. It will take effort to do so. Otherwise, it wouldn't take Qui-Gon so long to cut through the TradeFed's blastdoors.

    Secondly, in your second quote, I, too, know that Dooku is more powerful than Anakin. What I'm asking is, why he bothered using BOTH sabres when he only use them one at a time. He could've easily use both, one to strike the top, another to strike the bottom. Dooku would be confused as to which to block, right? But no, Anakin has to spin around and hit Dooku one blade at a time.

    As for overpowering anyone, yes, he did. He cut off Vader's arms. If that is not overpowering, I don't know what it is. What I'm trying to point out here is that higher midi-chlorian count is NOT equal to stronger. NO! Vader, though having less midi-chlorians than he had as a boy, still had more than Luke, yet he was beaten.

    I think you should read the posts more clearly.* Sorry for making it that long, though.

    WJTW

    *Don't mean to sound rude here.

  6. abenice1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Yeah, who can say?? Vader may have took a dive, but if he didn't Luke would have still won because the during those trilogies the light side was stronger then the Dark side. So what I am implyihg is that the force is with Luke.. So he would have won anyway...

    See during Episode 4,5,6 it was the Light side that was stronger. The Darkside is stronger now during the Episode 1,2,3 that is why Darth Sidious is able to cloud the jedi's vision and diminsh their powers..

    Well, During Lukes era the Light side was blocking darkside vision.. That is why Sidious couldn't forsee Vader betraying him. His use of the darkside has diminshed and it is also the only reason why Luke was able to take his force Lighting, because had that happen during the Old Republic Luke wouldn't have been able to take sidious's lightening at full blast!!!

    It was Luke's destiny to defeat vader and survive Sidious assault so that he can rebuild the Jedi order, and it was Vader's destiny to bring balance to the force by destroying the sith!!!!


    Ok Meloncoly (sorry about spellling)

    But any way if he did take a dive that just shows how stupid Vader is... Ok... If he is so big and bad why don't he just cut of Lukes wrist again and not kill him if he can't bring himself (episode 5) to destroy his own son??

    Why stop Luke from killing his master if he truly wants to "rule the galaxy as father and son" Please the boy is "twisted and evil" it took an ass whoopen and his son near death for him to see the light of day!!


    abe
  7. Sophita Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Isn't Anakin stronger than Yoda??

    Well in brute strength, sure. I mean, it's not exactly a fair comparison. Anakin DOES have about 100 lbs on the little guy. I mean, all Anakin has to do is "accidently" not pay attention where he sits down, and BOOM, no more Jedi master. :p
  8. abenice1 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    I agree with you WJTW that having a higher midoradian count does not neccessary mean you are better then someone with a lower count. That is evident in the Anakin vs. Dooku battle. Experience and pure hard work may make up for a Jedi with a lower count. That is mostly likely the reason why Obi wan Kenobi defeats Anakin in their fateful duel!!!

    Anakin is very cocky and arrogant, and may feel as though he doesn't have to work hard because of his raw talent... That is why I believe Yoda would defeat Anakin because he could exploit that weakness in Anakin, not the mention the fact that he has a lot more experience then Anakin.. To me Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever. Period!!! He is the master due to experience, skill, and contributions to the Jedi Order (padawans etc.)...

    Anakin on the other hand is like an athlete who career was cut short due to injury... But people make assumption that he may have been the best had he or she not gotten hurt! Well, Anakin, could have been the greatest, but he wasn't because he chose the wrong path and therefore we will never know how good he could have been.


    Thus the title of Greatest Jedi has to go to Yoda!!!!


    abe

  9. Darth_2Pac Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    No no no !!! By the end of the Star Wars saga, the greatest jedi is Luke, not Yoda, Palpatine, or Vader!!

    Yoda was a jedi master full of wisdom and strength. Like all jedi masters, he had a full understanding of the force's nature. But in sheer power he is surpassed by both Anakin/Vader and Luke.

    Darth Vader was indeed the most POWERFUL jedi/sith that had ever lived. For some reason yet to be revealed, he is subservant to Palptine/Sideous.

    "But if Vader was stronger than Palpatine, then why doesn't he kill him and take charge of the Empire?"
    First of all, Vader did plan on doing so, which is made evident during his offer to Luke on Cloud City. He needed Luke as re-assurance to his victory over Palpatine.

    Let's just say Vader is to Palpatine as Luke was to Yoda. As strong as Vader was, he was far from achieving "mastery" of the force's nature which Palpatine had clearly accomplished.

    Palpatine did not fear Vader however, for he was unable to forsee his redemption. As strong as Vader was, Palpatine thought it to be impossible for Vader to turn on him. He even prompts Luke to strike him down knowing Vader would block it without question. That's the power Palptine has over Vader, the mastery of the force that enables him to forsee the future and manipulate the living to do his bidding.

    So you see, Yoda was the equivalent to Palpatine. He was a master of the force and was quite powerful. In order to rid the galaxy of the empire he'd have to confront Palpatine....but to do that he'd have to face Vader first.....and Vader was clearly stronger than Yoda.

    Then comes Luke, the son of Anakin. He and Leia are the only ones capable of matching Anakin's power and defeating him....BUT...we never see Leia trained so looks like it's up to Luke.

    By the start of ROTJ, Luke has already become more POWERFUL than Yoda.
    "No more training required"

    Okay so Luke has become powerful, and the Emperor knows that he could destroy him.

    There can only be two lords of the sith. If there are more than two, their existance is in danger so his only trump card is to have Vader kill him or turn Luke to the dark side and have him kill Vader.
    Either way the Emperor wins.

    Now here's where the "Luke's the greatest jedi" comes into play. He....

    1) Defeats Darth Vader
    2) Defies the Emperor's several attempts of manipulation and refuses the temptation that is the dark side
    3) Saw the good in Vader, despite the words of Yoda and Obi Wan.

    Don't let the battles fool you!! Just because the prequel battles are mor electrifying than the classics ones doesn't determine anything!! It was 1980!!

    The power that Luke and Vader are fighting at in ROTJ far surpasses anything we've seen in the prequels thus far, and if it was illustrated in today's film era it would blow our minds!!

    So by the end of the saga, Luke has become the most powerful jedi of all time, and judging by his feats accomplished aboard the second Death Star in the Emperor's throne room, I'd say he's the greatest as well.
  10. Darth_2Pac Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Also...I do not think Vader intended on killing Luke on Bespin. I think at first his plan was to freeze him and bring him to Palpatine, however as the fight progressed he realized Luke was more powerful than he had thought. Regardless of the fact that Vader somewhat dominated him in battle, he definitley knew that with his son at his side that together they would be able to overthrow the Emperor without question....after all it was forseen that Luke could destroy him.

    In ROTJ however, Luke makes it clear to Vader that he will not turn. At that moment I think Vader finally threw all possibilities of "hesitation" out the window....
    "....you'll be forced to kill me."
    "If that is your destiny."

    "....let go of your hate"
    "It's too late for me, my son"

    BUT Luke sensed a good in Vader that even Vader himself could not sense.
    "I feel the good in you...the conflict"
    "There is NO conflict"

    Don't be fooled into thinking Vader was hesitant to kill Luke in ROTJ. Although the good in him actully exsted, he was unaware of it and was definitley planning on killing Luke. To take a quote from Palpatine's phrase book, "Only at the end did he understand..."
    "You were right about me...tell your sister...you were right"

    Only at that point did Anakin realize Luke was right the entire time.

  11. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    When I read something like this, I wonder what movie you were watching, because you completely missed the point of Return of the Jedi. - Sciwalker

    I did, did I? Yawn!!! [face_plain]

    When Luke uses the Force choke in the beginning, it is not a sign of him being a wimp. It is a sign of how dangerously close he is too losing what it means to be a Jedi. It's a Dark Side thing. - Sciwalker

    What the hell are you talking about?

    the point is RAMMED home later in the movie, when Luke has Vader completely on the ropes and is about to do him in, then looks at the gloved hand and Vader's wiry stump. - Sciwalker

    First of all, he has nobody on any ropes. Second of all, we all get the hand symbolism, Dr. Freud! [face_laugh]

    Luke is stronger than Vader, because he had the strength to go right up to the Dark Side, then reject it at the moment of truth. A strength Anakin lacked, or there never gets to be a Darth Vader. - Sciwalker

    Ummm?Luke is never stronger than Vader. I know that makes you sad, :_| but you?re going to have to face that. You can do it. Just keep saying, ?I think I can?I think I can.?

    Unfortunately, because we are dealing with a storymaker who lies to himself as well as us, you will get some backup from George Lucas himself on what you think. - Sciwalker

    Gee, you are quite amazing! Besides thinking you are some Star Warsphile, [face_laugh] you also possess the ability to perform pop-psychology on a man you have never met. I love people who sit back and are going to tell George Lucas how his films should be, and what they are supposed to mean. Fascinating!!!

    He's tricked himself into say that this whole thing is Anakin's story, but the OT, it's Luke's story. You need to remember that. - Sciwalker

    It?s all Anakin?s story. Episodes IV, V and VI are about his redemption. Episodes I, II and III are about his fall. You need to come to terms with that.

    But what he fails to realize is that seeing Luke in ANH (really, the time after ANH and before ESB when Vader finds out that it was Luke who destroyed the Death Star and he begins his obsessive search to find him while concealing this from Palpatine), brings up feelings in Vader that he may have chosen the wrong path. He begins to question himself, which is the key to all of this. ? Melancholy

    There's only one problem with your argument is that it is based on a supposition not supported by anything in the movies. ? Sciwalker

    It isn't? Nobody told Vader to go after Luke. The Emperor certainly didn?t. Read the Opening Crawl of Episode V. It says Vader and Vader alone has become ?obsessed? with finding Luke. You don?t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. [face_laugh]

    You have repeatedly said that Vader concealed his search for Luke from the Emperor. I'm sorry, I just reread the dialogue from the Hologram chat Vader and the Emperor had. - Sciwalker

    Dude, what is wrong with you? :confused: For 2/3 of the movie Vader is looking for Luke and is using Empire resources to do it without Palpatine?s knowledge. When Palpatine sends the hologram, it is then that he (Palpatine) had found out about Luke. That is why he is contacting Vader!!! Palpatine wants Vader to simply kill Luke. It is Vader who comes up with the idea of turning him, both to buy time and protect his son. Get a clue. [face_plain] You position is untenable as well as inane.

    Where do you get ANY concealment from that scene? - Sciwalker

    Now, try and stay with me. The concealment was going on before that hologram scene. Are you okay? Do you want to sit down?

    Ali beat George Foreman. Ali beat Joe Frazier. - Sciwalker

    Joe Frazier also beat Ali. In fact, he beat him in the only fight that had any meaning?the first one.

    Cassius Clay beat Sonny Liston.

    Ha! [face_laugh] Good choice. It?s well known that Liston took a dive in the rematch. [face_mischief]


  12. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Er... Melancholy, if you were to read my posts in full, you would have realized that I am aware of all the things you've mentioned. I think you should read the posts more clearly. - WJTW

    I read the posts in full. Please do not assume that I did not, it annoys me.

    I mentioned that the lightsaber has the potential to cut through anything. The potential. It will take effort to do so. - WJTW

    This is also incorrect. There are plenty of things that a lightsaber cannot cut through. George Lucas has already stated this several times. He calls it ?The rules.?

    When he made ANH, he decided he was going to have sound in space. He felt it was necessary to create the dramatic affect that he wanted. Also, he stated that he had to decide on the lightsabers. (i.e. What they could cut through and what they couldn?t cut through).

    Secondly, in your second quote, I, too, know that Dooku is more powerful than Anakin. - WJTW

    He is now, but he will not always be so.

    What I'm asking is, why he bothered using BOTH sabres when he only use them one at a time. He could've easily use both, one to strike the top, another to strike the bottom. Dooku would be confused as to which to block, right? But no, Anakin has to spin around and hit Dooku one blade at a time.- WJTW

    You are referring to the way it was choreographed. That is Nick Gillard?s department. This is not real! It is a movie. The actor does as he is told (instructed).

    As for overpowering anyone, yes, he did. He cut off Vader's arms. - WJTW

    He cut off his right mechanical hand, not his arms. This occurred after Vader intentionally grabbed the railing on the bridge (catwalk) and intentionally went to one knee on his own.

    If that is not overpowering, I don't know what it is. - WJTW

    So it would seem.

    What I'm trying to point out here is that higher midi-chlorian count is NOT equal to stronger. NO! Vader, though having less midi-chlorians than he had as a boy, still had more than Luke, yet he was beaten. ? WJTW

    Actually, the amount (level) of midichlorians you have is directly related to strength. The amount one has allows one to come into contact with, and will, the Force! The higher the count, the more will (strengh/power) with the Force one will have. This is why midichlorians are so important and why Yoda has the second highest level.
  13. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, who can say?? Vader may have took a dive, but if he didn't Luke would have still won because during the trilogies the light side was stronger then the Dark side. So what I am implying is that the force is with Luke.. So he would have won anyway... ? Abenice1

    I?m afraid not. The Dark Side is stronger in the OT. The Dark Side has control of the galaxy in the OT. The Light Side bounces back only, and I stress only when Vader kills Palpatine.

    See during Episode 4,5,6 it was the Light side that was stronger. The dark side is stronger now during the Episode 1,2,3 that is why Darth Sidious is able to cloud the Jedi?s vision and diminish their powers.. ? Abenice1

    No, it was not. During the PT, the Light Side still has great power. It has begun to diminish steadily, but it is still very powerful. Yes, the Dark Side is growing...and growing quickly. Think of it as an eclipse.

    Well, During Luke?s era the Light side was blocking dark side vision. That is why Sidious couldn't foresee Vader betraying him. His use of the dark side has diminished and it is also the only reason why Luke was able to take his force Lighting, because had that happen during the Old Republic Luke wouldn't have been able to take Sidious's lightening at full blast!!! ? Abenice1

    The Light Side was not blocking any Dark Side vision. Don?t get caught up in nonsense.

    Sidious couldn?t see Vader turning on him because of his overconfidence. It is a Dark Side weakness.

    ?Your overconfidence is your weakness.? ? Luke to Palpatine in ROTJ

    And earlier in the same scene?.

    ?By now you must know that your Father can never been turned from the Dark Side. So shall it be with you.? - Palpatine to Luke in ROTJ

    Please tell me that you are kidding about the Force lightning. :confused: You words don?t make the slightest bit of sense. First of all, Palpatine was not blasting Luke with full power. He was purposely torturing Luke, trying to make him suffer horribly and die slowly. Second of all, the one who gets the full blast is Vader. Palpatine is letting it all go in an attempt to get Vader to drop him. It doesn?t work.

    It was Luke's destiny to defeat Vader and survive Sidious assault so that he can rebuild the Jedi order, and it was Vader's destiny to bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith!!!! ? Abenice1

    It was Luke?s destiny to convince his Father that he chose the wrong path. This would lead to Anakin fulfilling the prophecy of ?the Chosen One.? In that, Luke succeeds. However, he does not defeat anybody.

    But any way if he did take a dive that just shows how stupid Vader is... Ok... If he is so big and bad why don't he just cut of Luke?s wrist again and not kill him if he can't bring himself (episode 5) to destroy his own son?? ? Abenice1

    This is simple. Palpatine will kill Luke. When Luke is beaten, why keep him around? By taking the dive, Vader has given Luke a chance. When Luke refuses Palpatine?s offer to come over to the Dark Side, Vader knows that Palpatine is going to kill him (Luke). This becomes Vader?s ultimate crossroad. He will not let Palpatine murder his son. Vader?s weakness is emotional, not physical. Palpatine?s weakness is in not understanding a father?s love for his son.

    Why stop Luke from killing his master if he truly wants to "rule the galaxy as father and son" Please the boy is "twisted and evil" it took an ass whoopen and his son near death for him to see the light of day!! ? Abenice1

    Are you saying Luke could kill Palpatine? That is the funniest thing I have heard around here in a long time. Thanks for the laugh. [face_laugh] He (Vader) is already beginning to see the light of day at the beginning of ESB. I think a lot of people on these boards need to look up the word conflicted.

    To me Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever. Period!!! ? Abenice1

    He is the most powerful Jedi ever. Anakin is a Sith Lord, not a Jedi.
  14. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    No no no !!! By the end of the Star Wars saga, the greatest Jedi is Luke, not Yoda, Palpatine, or Vader!! ? Darth_2Pac

    Have you ever seen threads where people ask ?what is the silliest thing you have ever heard a Star Wars fan say?? Guess what, you win.

    Yoda was a Jedi master full of wisdom and strength. Like all Jedi masters, he had a full understanding of the force's nature. But in sheer power he is surpassed by both Anakin/Vader and Luke. ? Darth_2Pac

    He is surpassed by Anakin/Vader. He is never surpassed by Luke.

    Darth Vader was indeed the most POWERFUL jedi/sith that had ever lived. For some reason yet to be revealed, he is subservant to Palptine/Sideous.

    It is not a question of subservience. It is the Rule of Two. Anakin believes in the philosophy started by Darth Bane as do all Sith Lords.

    "But if Vader was stronger than Palpatine, then why doesn't he kill him and take charge of the Empire?" First of all, Vader did plan on doing so, which is made evident during his offer to Luke on Cloud City. He needed Luke as re-assurance to his victory over Palpatine. ? Darth_2Pac

    He was conflicted about doing so. On the one hand, he lost faith in Palpatine?s ability to deal with the Rebellion and run the galaxy. On the other hand, he was conflicted over his loyalty to Palpatine and the Sith Order. This isn?t rocket science.

    Let's just say Vader is to Palpatine as Luke was to Yoda. As strong as Vader was, he was far from achieving "mastery" of the force's nature which Palpatine had clearly accomplished. ?Darth_2Pac

    Ummm?two quotes up you said that Darth Vader was ?indeed the most POWERFUL Jedi/Sith that had ever lived.? What happened? [face_laugh] Frightening!!!

    Palpatine did not fear Vader ? Darth_2Pac

    Oh, yes he did. He no longer trusts Vader. When Vader was looking for Luke without him (Palpatine) knowing, and with Luke getting away at Cloud City, there is now both suspicion and friction.

    So you see, Yoda was the equivalent to Palpatine. He was a master of the force and was quite powerful. In order to rid the galaxy of the empire he'd have to confront Palpatine....but to do that he'd have to face Vader first.....and Vader was clearly stronger than Yoda. ? Darth_2Pac

    You are all over the map!!! :confused:. Were you drunk when you posted these thoughts?

    Then comes Luke, the son of Anakin. He and Leia are the only ones capable of matching Anakin's power and defeating him....BUT...we never see Leia trained so looks like it's up to Luke. ?Darth 2Pac

    They can neither match his power, nor defeat him. [face_laugh]

    By the start of ROTJ, Luke has already become more POWERFUL than Yoda.

    Okay so Luke has become powerful, and the Emperor knows that he could destroy him. ? Darth_2Pac


    Oh dear God!!! [face_laugh]

    Don't let the battles fool you!! Just because the prequel battles are mor electrifying than the classics ones doesn't determine anything!! It was 1980!! ?Darth_2Pac

    Listen, please don?t insult me. I was alive when the OT came out. I saw all of them in the theaters originally. I was there?right from the start. Star Wars has been a part of my life since I was three years old. Believe me, I am the last one here to be condescended to. :mad:

    The power that Luke and Vader are fighting at in ROTJ far surpasses anything we've seen in the prequels thus far, and if it was illustrated in today's film era it would blow our minds!! ? Darth_2Pac

    I?m afraid not. Luke isn?t even a Jedi when he faces Vader in a fight that Luke doesn?t want to happen and Vader has no intention or desire to win. You couldn?t have misinterpreted it more incorrectly. It?s a duel between a Father and son who have absolutely no interest in fighting one another. [face_plain]

    So by the end of the saga, Luke has become the most powerful Jedi of all time, and judging by his feats accomplished aboard the second Death Star in the Emperor's throne room, I'd say he's the greatest as well.

    What feats?
  15. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Please keep the personal remarks to a minimum, and just focus on what someone is saying.
  16. Darth_2Pac Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    First of all, these are only movies. Although they may be important to you (maybe a little too important),there is no need to make this a personal argument, so you could drop the insults. Now to back up my arguements.

    As strong as Vader was, he was far from achieving "mastery" of the force's nature which Palpatine had clearly accomplished
    -Darth 2Pac (me)

    Ummm?two quotes up you said that Darth Vader was ?indeed the most POWERFUL Jedi/Sith that had ever lived.? What happened? Frightening!!! -melancholy

    Yes Vader was more powerful than anybody, but that doesn't mean he was a master of the force. It just means he was able to tap more of it's power than others were able to. Palpatine on the other hand was a Sith Master, who although wasn't as powerful as Vader, was more attuned to the dark side of the force. This mastery of the force enabled him to forsee the future, something only Jedi Masters were capable of. All Jedi can feel and use the force, but only Jedi Masters fully understand it's nature and existance.

    Palpatine did not fear Vader -Darth_2Pac

    Oh, yes he did. He no longer trusts Vader. When Vader was looking for Luke without him (Palpatine) knowing, and with Luke getting away at Cloud City, there is now both suspicion and friction.
    -melancholy

    There was no suspicion. When Palpatine arrives on the Death Star he says to Vader, "Everything is going as I have forseen." Where did you get the idea he no longer trusted Vader? From watching ROTJ, I would think differently. Dont you remember? He prompts Luke to strike him down!! Why? Because he was positive Vader would block it!

    Then comes Luke, the son of Anakin. He and Leia are the only ones capable of matching Anakin's power and defeating him....BUT...we never see Leia trained so looks like it's up to Luke.
    ?Darth 2Pac

    They can neither match his power, nor defeat him- melancholy

    Obviousley they can, for Luke does indeed defeat Vader. When was the last time you watched ROTJ?

    Luke has become powerful, and the Emperor knew that he could destroy him. ? Darth_2Pac

    Oh dear God!!!- melancholy

    I'm seriousley beginning to wonder if you've ever even seen these movies.
    "He could destroy us"
    "Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has forseen"
    "He has grown strong, only TOGETHER can we turn him to the dark side of the force"


    Luke isn?t even a Jedi when he faces Vader in a fight that Luke doesn?t want to happen and Vader has no intention or desire to win. You couldn?t have misinterpreted it more incorrectly. It?s a duel between a Father and son who have absolutely no interest in fighting one another.
    -melancholy

    Although he didn't have the title "jedi", Luke was VERY powerful. ((Obi Wan wasn't a jedi when he faced Maul was he?)) Luke became a Jedi once he defeated Vader, so yes you're right when you say he wasn't a jedi during their fight. But I'm afraid you're the one who misinterpreted the scene. Although Luke did not want to kill his father at the start of the duel, I can assure you he was ready to do so after Vader mentioned Leia. He was a hair away from accepting the dark side and killing his father.

    I don't think Vader was in denial at all. What makes Luke the greatest Jedi is that he could sense that light in his father that nobody else, even Vader himself could not sense. So although Luke had no intetnions of fighting, I can assure you Vader did. Here's just some backup to that.
    "I will not turn, and you will be forced to kill me"
    "If that is your destiny"

    "There is NO conflict"
    "If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny"

    If Vader knew there was good in him, then he would have said, "hey you're right, let's kill this old kcuf"







  17. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Please keep the personal remarks to a minimum, and just focus on what someone is saying.

    I'll try, YodaJeff. But, it is difficult. Have you read some of these posts? 8-}

    It's almost like they are asking for it.

    If a person gives me a knive and then sticks out their throat......
  18. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yes Vader was more powerful than anybody, but that doesn't mean he was a master of the force.

    Ummm...I'm pretty sure it does.

    It just means he was able to tap more of it's power than others were able to.

    That is what a Master is.

    Palpatine on the other hand was a Sith Master, who although wasn't as powerful as Vader, was more attuned to the dark side of the force. This mastery of the force enabled him to forsee the future, something only Jedi Masters were capable of.

    That doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense. If Palpatine could see the future, couldn't he see Anakin killing him?

    There was no suspicion. When Palpatine arrives on the Death Star he says to Vader, "Everything is going as I have forseen." Where did you get the idea he no longer trusted Vader?

    Everybody knows this. It is common knowledge.

    "A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor." - Darth Vader

    "Yes, I know." - Palpatine

    "My son is with them." - Darth Vader

    "Are you sure?" - Palpatine

    "I have felt him, my Master." - Darth Vader

    "Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear, Lord Vader."

    "They are clear, Master." - Darth Vader

    I can't make it any easier than that.

    From watching ROTJ, I would think differently. Don't you remember? He prompts Luke to strike him down!! Why? Because he was positive Vader would block it!

    Vader is conflicted. He is not yet against him. There is a difference.

    Obviousley they can, for Luke does indeed defeat Vader.

    Luke defeats no one.

    When was the last time you watched ROTJ?

    Sunday. The difference is that I can understand it.

    Luke has become powerful, and the Emperor knew that he could destroy him. ? Darth_2Pac

    "He could destroy us"
    "Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has forseen"
    "He has grown strong, only TOGETHER can we turn him to the dark side of the force"


    He is not being literal. [face_laugh] He is generalizing. Luke is a threat because he is Anakin's son. Get it?

    Although he didn't have the title "jedi", Luke was VERY powerful. ((Obi Wan wasn't a jedi when he faced Maul was he?))

    And Maul kicked his butt with relative ease. He was killed due to his own overconfidence by not quickly finishing Kenobi when he had him dead.

    Although Luke did not want to kill his father at the start of the duel, I can assure you he was ready to do so after Vader mentioned Leia.

    The entire point was to get Luke to give into his anger and hate so that he could crossover to the Dark Side.

    I don't think Vader was in denial at all.

    You couldn't be more wrong.

    What makes Luke the greatest Jedi is that he could sense that light in his father that nobody else, even Vader himself could not sense.

    I'm sure Vader knows what is going on in his own mind. You are reaching, badly.

    So although Luke had no intetnions of fighting, I can assure you Vader did.

    You couldn't be more wrong, part two.

    Here's just some backup to that.
    "I will not turn, and you will be forced to kill me"
    "If that is your destiny"

    "There is NO conflict"
    "If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny"


    I like the way you selectively quote.

    "Search your feelings Father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict (Oops, there's that word again [face_laugh]) within you. Just let go of your hate." - Luke to Vader in ROTJ

    "Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict." - Luke to Vader in ROTJ Damn, there's that word...again! :D

    "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't think you'll destroy me now." - Luke to Vader in ROTJ

    Luke knows what is going on.

    Luke knows he does not want to fight.

    Luke knows he is not even trying.

    This is like basic arithmetic.


  19. Meatypants Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    If a person gives me a knive and then sticks out their throat......
    [edited]


    "Yes Vader was more powerful than anybody, but that doesn't mean he was a master of the force.

    reply: Ummm...I'm pretty sure it does.

    It just means he was able to tap more of it's power than others were able to.

    reply: That is what a Master is."

    Not really. At no point did Anakin/Vader show much more than brute warrior strength. He may have been the greatest Jedi warrior (we shall see), but how many premonitions has he had? How many 100s (or thousands) of Jedi and Senators did he conceal himself from (like Palpy during the end of the Republic)? Vader had more power than any other Force user, but its what he did or didn't do with it that makes one doubt his true mastery.

    Now certainly, he had prophetic dreams during his youth that hinted at the potential, but that's exactly what it was potential that never reached mastery.



    Everybody knows this. It is common knowledge.

    "A small rebel...
    ..."They are clear, Master." - Darth Vader


    Essentially that conversation can be summed up to Palpy saying "You my bitch? Yeah, you definitely still my bitch. Carry on, Lord Vader." It presented his doubt towards Vader, but if anything, the later scene with Luke shows just how much trust he had in Vader.

    He is not being literal. He is generalizing. Luke is a threat because he is Anakin's son. Get it?

    He could very well be speaking literally. Saying that Luke has grown strong implies more than just "hey, he's Vader's boy! I bet that'll damage his loyalty to me!" It implies that Luke really is strong.

    Ah, but I'm conflicted on this whole dive schtick, so I'm gonna go ahead and let you quip away, and see where the debris settles. Carry on.

    YJ edit: That wasn't necessary.
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Darth 2pac-

    Just ignore him and this thread because no matter how hard you try, there is no hope in getting into Melancholy's head and make him realise that what went on in ROTJ is not what he is suggesting to us.
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