Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    First off, the number of people killed is way less than 40.

    Secondly, the government has apoligized.

    Thirdly, we even flew some of the injured to our hospitals.

    Fourthly, if we pulled out of Afghanistan right now, Karzi would be driven out of office and there would be a multi-sided civil war.

    Fifthly, if that civil war occured, many more civilians would have died.

    Everybody seems to forget that inaction has as much bearing on what happens as action does. Being inactive in this situation would be a much greater tragedy than being inactive.
  2. Diesel_Dave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    edit: Whoa! double post

    text deleted due to duplication

    (I clicked the wrong button!) :p
  3. Diesel_Dave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    It saddens me whenever I hear things like this. I agree, no innocent person(s) deserve to die.

    It's also very unfortunate that we have to be over there in the first place.

    What does one expect? Perfection and war do not go hand in hand. I doubt that the wedding planners said anything like "Oh excuse Mr. Special Forces man. I just want you to know that we will be having a wedding and we will also be firing our guns into the air after midnight."

    And why would AK-47s or whatever they were packing be needed at a wedding.

    There are still known hostiles at large and we (the US) and other countries are looking for them. Just because the US is the only "superpower" left, we get all the bad press. I admit the US makes plenty of mistakes and wrong doings but we are definitely not the only country to do so.

    And as to the US Military men not being tried for war crimes by the UN international court. If I remember correctly, we won't agree until they can guaranty similar rights to those given to US citizens in the US constitution.

    Here is the quote I found on cnn.com
    The United States, which signed the statute to create the court but never ratified it, is opposed to the ICC in part because it feels the treaty does not go far enough to avoid the risk of politically motivated prosecutions. It wants immunity for countries that are not party to the ICC but still contribute troops to U.N. peacekeeping operations.

    and another here

    Powell told ABC that "President Clinton, when he signed [the treaty], notified the world that the United States had no intention of sending it up for ratification, nor would he recommend to the ... Bush administration that we would send it up for ratification."

    and it goes on to say

    The Bush administration objects to the court on the grounds it does not give American citizens and U.S. military personnel the same protection afforded to them under the U.S. Constitution.

    Officials said it also does not entitle Americans to the same defense allowed to them under the U.S. legal system.

    It also contends the treaty bypasses the U.N. charter and the role of the U.N. Security Council relating to international law.

    Another U.S. objection is that it "goes beyond the operation of legal institutions and can determine what is a crime of aggression," another senior administration official said.


    In defense of the US. There are usually good reasons for doing what we do!

    Just MHO!
  4. shds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 2
    Get it straight people, I'm not talking about accidently killing civilians. I'm talking about first trying to justify it and then quickly shoving it under.

    "Unfortunately, the opposite side will not allow a 'straight fight'... but two can play at the 'sneaking around' game..."

    It is very obvious that Taliban troops aren't fools. They know the terrain and are experienced in only guerilla warfare. Conventional warfare just gets them bombed. It is equally obvious that US Central Command aren't a bunch of fools that they can't see that this was going to be a guerilla war. They said that this was going to be a covert guerilla war from the very beginning. It was guaranteed that the Taliban would withdraw to the mountains or melt into the civilian population sooner or later. It was just a matter of time. The US now has to take obvious safeguards to ensure that the civilian population isn't targetted. It has not been taking appropriate measures to ensure this.

    At the beginning, the fools in control of this War were relying on warlords for info. So you have warlords calling air-strikes on each other and on villages that oppose them and the US made zero effort to ensure that they were targetting the right people. Next you had the American-backed warlords appoint "policemen" in various places. These same "policemen" are responsible for the rapidly rising crime rate. They were involved in a shootout with the ISAF troops just a while back. Thirdly, you have American troops openly complying with what amounts to war crimes, most specifically the massacre of several thousand surrendered and unarmed Taliban troops in Mazar-i-Sharif. A couple months ago, several villages were shelled by an American-backed warlord named Bacha Khan Zardran. Zardran gave an order to his commander in a room filled with American journalists and the head of US Forces to "kill them all, men women and children." The fact that we are backing someone like that says a lot about this war. (READ this)

    Quotes from an LA Times article on Afghan civilian casualties:

    "Interviewed in the ruins of villages, survivors seemed to harbor a deep reservoir of anger for what they describe as American indifference and denial."

    "The most the villagers got was a few truckloads of food from the Americans," said Gul Amir Jan, a senior commander who worked with Special Forces soldiers when he led Afghan troops in battle at Tora Bora in December. "But the Americans didn't even apologize. They never do."

    "Villagers said Mudoh was targeted because Afghan fighters who had personal vendettas and land disputes with them told the Americans that Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters had taken refuge there. Haji Lal Mohammed, who commanded an Afghan unit at Tora Bora, said the fighters settled the score by using satellite telephones supplied by Special Forces to call their American patrons and tell them that the village was an enemy hide-out."

    "Piara Gul, who said he has no family left, does not want an apology. He wants vengeance.
    "I curse America," he said, kneeling over his wife's rocky grave. "I put a curse on the Americans who did this. I pray they will have the tragedy in their lives that I have had in mine."

    "We are ruined," he said. "We thought the Americans were good people. But they just drop their bombs and leave. They don't explain. They don't apologize. They don't even offer to pay for what they did."

    Money would not bring back his family, Sedeq said, but it would show Afghans that the U.S. is willing to take responsibility for its mistakes.

    "The Americans have lost the hearts of the people," he said, staring down at his wife's grave. "Who can love America now?"
  5. shds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 2
    "And why would AK-47s or whatever they were packing be needed at a wedding"

    Firstly, it is tradition. Secondly, the crime rate has hit the roof since the arrival of the warlords and thirdly, practically everyone in Afghanistan has an AK-47. Even the shepherds. You would expect that even the least-intelligent American soldier knows this.

    And there are perfectly good safeguards in the provisions of the International Criminal Court to prevent politically motivated allegations.
  6. AdmiralZaarin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 5
    And why would AK-47s or whatever they were packing be needed at a wedding.

    It's a Pashtun tradition to fire into the air after a wedding. This is the whole reason the US bombed the wedding; they thought the happy relatives etc were Taliban troops firing potshots at them.
  7. Diesel_Dave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Get it straight people, I'm not talking about accidently killing civilians. I'm talking about first trying to justify it and then quickly shoving it under.

    That's why I hate polititions. So I'm with you on that point. But you have to admit, we're not the only country who pulls that kind of bull****! and we do it far less often than many of those that do.

    regarding the ICC stuff. I agree there seem to be many safeguards in place. What makes me nervous is that this ICC panel seems only accounable to itself. And what about being tried for the same crime twice. If through due process the offender cannot be convicted, say from lack of evidence, or discredidation of witnesses, The ICC seems to be able to try again and again untill it gets what it wants. That is of coarse, assuming a provission to prevent this double jepordy isn't in place.

    There are many gaps in my understanding I admit. And respecfully some of what Bush is saying seems unreasonable. But without reading the full text of the Rome Treaty, I really can't say to much other than what I read of the summerized articles.

    Regarding the massacre if prisoners, the ONLY place I could find anything about it (on the web anyway), is in the Anti-US propaganda web sites. Not even the Human Rights Watch web site makes any mention of it, the eleged film, or the photographer. If (and I'm reserving my 'BIG IF' right here) it is true though, I do feel that the US servicmen (and women if present) must be brought to justice.

    Lets see, what's left... traditions! Rifles, much less assault rifles, haven't been in the region all that long. Traditions are usually decades if not 100s of years old. The only purpose to shoot a gun into the air is to make a loud niose, much like fireworks. Two flat peices of wood smacked together can have the same effect! Guns are just easier, and sadly more plentiful. The Sheperds usually carry them to protect their flock or family BTW. Not incase the desire to practice this tradition comes up. I do know about this tradition as it is also in US history that ranch herders, cowboys, etc. would do the same thing. Luckely they realized that the bullets come back down. It was also in wide practice in Mexico many years ago. Although I think it has passed on there as well. Except for the gang members and rednecks in many states of the US. They still insist on using guns as noisemakers. To bad too. Here in Arizona a young girl died a few years back when the bullet came down through the roof and killed her in her house on Independence Day.

    Well it's WAY past my bedtime here. Good debating with everyone.

    Good night... ya'll! :D

    In the future please edit the whole word
  8. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    SHDS:

    From your article, "From their heavily guarded compound on the southern edge of the city, U.S. Special Forces brought blood and medicine to the hospital to help treat the wounded, Irfan said.

    But people say it's not enough.

    They want the special forces to use their military might to rein in the warlords. They say the U.S. response is quick and forceful when they are threatened, but less so when residents come under fire."

    The cold hard fact is that after 9/11 our primamry mission became to deystroy the group responsible for the attack. If the US does what you want in Afghanistan then do we have a moral obligation to step in many other countries controlled by warlords or countries that have little to no freedoms?

    If there has been a masacare of 3,000 POW's then severe punishment is needed, but I need to see more proof then information from a "Socialist" site that clearly has an agenda. If this video exists someone would either post it for internet download or give the world some screenshots.

    Why is that no matter what the topic your responses always stray away from topic and turn into a US bashing post?
  9. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    That's why I hate polititions. So I'm with you on that point. But you have to admit, we're not the only country who pulls that kind of bullsh**! and we do it far less often than many of those that do.

    "But mom! he does it too!"

    Not an excuse I thought.

    Also, on the AK's and firing into the air, you do know that such traditions were in place in europe at the start of the century too right? For example, each new year, people would shoot into the air and make alot of noise to keep the bad spirits away. Same thing at the weddings.
  10. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Its hard to believe some of the things im reading here. First of all, some of you are justifying the deaths of innocents by saying "this is a war, innocent people die in war". But no OFFICIAL war has been declared. Your not fighting a government or a country, but a terrorist organization. How are you fighting this organization? By bombing the heck out of villages, and chasing ghosts through the mountains. And when you take prisoners, you refuse to call them prisoners of war.

    Also, CNN has to be one of the worst news stations for the propeganda i was speaking of earlier. Their reports are often one sided accounts, with false information thrown in here or there.

    It is true that at least 40 people died at that wedding. Some of the hospital workers there even say they think that number is in the hundreds. Many kids who have been injured are left without any family at all.

    You compare Bin Laden and the Taliban to Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Oh how quickly you forget that the US founded both. Yep, back in the 80s the US supported teh Al Queda. And back before the war, the US sold guns to the Nazis. Its only when both of these things attacked the US that they bothered to do anything about them.

    Terrorist organizations are based not on governments or their countries, but on ideas. How do you fight an idea??

    Bloody Sunday. The RUC opened fire on peaceful protesters, because they suspected some of them might have been in in the IRA. 13 Innocent people were shot dead. The result? More people signed up to be in the IRA than ever before. Thats what happens when you go to war on terrorism.

    Ultimately, your just gonna make the Afghanistan civillians hate you even more than they do right now.
  11. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    Lately, they have ruled out the errant bomb theory. Which leaves one of two options:

    Either an AC-130 crew thought they was some anti-aircraft fire coming their way, and they tried to suppress it (when you are flying combat, if you wait to see what the muzzle flashes are, you will probably be riding a parachute to the ground), or it was anti-aircraft fire that came back down.

    And the casualty total is a LOT lower than originally reported.
  12. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    No, it is not time we stopped military action in Afghanistan and around the world.

    No, the US is not intentionally innocent people.

    No, it is not reasonable to demand that no innocent people are affected in a war. Sure, it stinks. But the alternatives are much worse. Allowing a negative situation to persist, or a problem to go unsolved simply because we lack the ability to do everything surgically, or lack the political will to do it anyway, is an invitation of disorder. There needs to be the threat of credible military action in order to promote peace around the world. Have fun with the catch-22.

    Yes, we should expect the military and intelligence services to put lots of effort into avoiding these incidents.



  13. Tupolov Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    The taliban has been squashed but the Al-Quada is still operating and is planning an attack at this very moment according to the news.
  14. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, sure, CNN always knows what the Al Queda are thinking.There are more than one way to look at things.

    DON'T TAKE THIS TOO SERIOUSLY
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    CORUSCANT -- Presiding over a memorial service commemorating the victims of the attack on the Death Star, the Emperor declared that while recent victories over the Rebel Alliance were "encouraging, the War on Terror is not over yet."
    "We will continue to fight these terrorists, and the rogue governments who harbor them, until the universe is safe, once and for all, and the security of the Neo-New Cosmik Order ensured." It was one year ago today that the Death
    Star, perhaps the greatest symbol of the Empire's might, was destroyed in an attack by fanatic Rebels, who used small, single-person crafts to infiltrate seemingly impenetrable defenses. Thousands of mourners were on hand to remember and pay tribute to the victims and their families. "We lost our innocence that day," reflected one mourner. "I guess we thought
    we were immune from the kind of violence that happens in other galaxies. We were wrong."
    "I lost hundreds of buddies that day," said one teary-eyed Stormtrooper. "Guys whose only crime was trying make the Universe a safer place."

    Although the day was colored by sadness, the mourners found some relief in the news of a decisive victory over the Rebels.
    In an attack led by Darth Vader, Empire forces were able to rout hundreds of Rebels from a network of caves underneath the surface of the planet Hoth. "We're not sure we got them all," says a Vader spokesman. "There are a lot of places to hide in those caves. But we've delivered powerful blow to the
    terrorist's infrastructure, that's for sure. Today, the Empire has struck back."


    Initial reports are unclear as to the fate of Luke Skywalker, a hero among the Rebels, who is rumored to have delivered the fatal blow to the Death Star. Skywalker, a former desert-dweller from the planet Tattooine, became a part of the Rebellion after family members were killed. Skywalker was trained by a
    militant wing of the Rebels, known as "Jedi Knights." Fanatical in their religious beliefs, the Jedi Knights claim to derive their power from the mystical "Force."

    It's believed that Skywalker was specifically trained by infamous terrorist O bin Wankanobi. Wankanobi, occasionally called "Ben" and easily recognized by his bearded visage and long, flowing robes, achieved near-martyr status among the Rebels after his death last year during a spy mission. His more fervent
    followers believe that Wankanobi lives on within them today, some even claiming to hear his voice during times of duress.


    The attack on the Death Star came shortly after the Empire's destruction of Alderaan, a planet whose government was known to harbor terrorists. Responding to criticism over the total annihilation of the planet, Vader stated, "There is no middle ground in the War on Terror. Those who harbor terrorists are
    terrorists themselves. Alderaan was issued ample warning. The fight for continuing Freedom is often burdened by terrible cost."


    The cost of this war can still be seen today in the continuing efforts to build a coalition government on Tattooine. Longstanding animosities among the planets various ethnic groups, including the Jawas, Tusken Raiders and
    scattered human settlers, have been an impediment to the peace process. The Empire continues to maintain a small peace keeping force until a provisional government is finally in place.

    Much of the difficulty in fighting the Rebel forces stems from their lack of a central organizing structure. "They don't play by the traditional rules of war," complained one spokesman. "They come in all shapes and sizes, united only by their single-minded desire to destroy the Empire before it destroys them."

    The Emperor closed his comments today by stating that "the cowardly attack on the Death Star left a deep scar on the Empire. However, we will not stop fighting until every last evildoer has been brought to justic
  15. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    It's an accident, they thought they were being shot at and called in an airstrike. That's procedure in peacekeeping missions. You do nothing till you're shot at.

    Simple story, with a tragic ending, 1 death 40 deaths or 100.
  16. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah but if it happened in AMerica people would be up in arms here. There is a huge double standard
  17. Waning Drill Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Americans by and large get more upset over American deaths than they do over Afghan deaths. Hmm. I wonder why that is. [face_plain]

    Still, an improbable scenario. If the US were at war with, uh, France or whomever and they accidentally bombed Nowheresville, VA the military isn't going to suddenly stop its campaign and go, "Shame on you, you missed your target." 'War is war' and all that rhetoric, you know.
  18. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah i know why they get more upset over american deaths than afgani deaths. But that is the type of hypocrisy i am tlaking about
  19. Sarajevo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 3
    Of corse we do. Its natural to care more for people from your own country more than others. Its true for everyone. I'm not saying that an Afgani's death is insignificant(sp?). I'm just saying that you would care more about the guy down the street dying than you would about a guy on the other side of the world.
  20. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    No doubt. I'd have to say that's pretty much human nature at work there.

    As far as this incident goes, all I can say is accidents happen, even in war. We know, we're sorry, and we didn't do it ON PURPOSE. However, big fat WORD of advice to Afghan residents: don't shoot guns in the air until this is over. Thank you.

    Oh, sorry..one more rant: As far as the 'it's their tradition' argument: who cares? I find it interesting that the 'tradition' argument got shot down in the Pledge thread as even a smidge of a reason to keep the word's "under God" in it, yet it's expected to be considered as perfectly logical in this one. Perfect example of all the attitude that "every culture's traditions are worth respect"... EXCEPT Western culture's. I used to just read about this phenomenom born of the ideals of 'multiculturalsim' and 'tolerance', but the more time I spend in here, the more I actually see that it often is the case.

    And I give it a great big [face_plain]
  21. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Yes but dont you think that unless you know the dead person personally both deaths are equally horrible. Its like when 100,000 people die in an earthquake and no one in america cares and yet when a few americans die its the worst thing ever. All i am saying is that people should be outraged at these types of things no matter where they occur.
  22. Runaway_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think it's fair to compair this to what happened in WWII. It was an entirely diffrent then.

    And it's good that America wants to help, but they have to do it for the right reason and if they do, do it right not half work
  23. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Sleazo compare distance to beauty. It's like saying looks don't matter. We say they don't but they do.
  24. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    TeeBee:
    However, big fat WORD of advice to Afghan residents: don't shoot guns in the air until this is over. Thank you.

    I will repeat that advice and bold it for emphasis. Our guys are a little touchy about seeing muzzle flashes directed skyward, and they will not wait for a bullet to hit their aircraft before they decide to do something about the muzzle flashes.

  25. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    True. Americans may not care or just be indifferent when something happens outside of America, but we don't celebrate and cheer when it happens, or tell them they got what they deserved. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for many other countries.
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