Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    All i am saying is that people should be outraged at these types of things no matter where they occur.

    Sleazo, I know what you are trying to say, I think, but I honestly don't know about 'outraged'. Sorry and bummed, but not 'outraged'.

    The pilot thought he was under attack and he shot back. What's to be 'outraged' about? He did the logical, common sense thing. He did what he's supposed to do. He shot back.

    Sometimes, it really is just that simple.
  2. Sarajevo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 3
    Both deats would be a bad thing, but the one that you were closest to(geographicly or emotioniy) will have the biggest impact on you. I also think it may have something to do with were you come from. People from different places tend to rreact to things differently.

    If its July 3, happy Corn Shucking Day, London Day, and Beef Day!
    If its July 4, happy Sidewalk Egg Frying Day! If you're an American happy Indepedece Day/4 of July. If you're not an American, happy July 4!
  3. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    True. Americans may not care or just be indifferent when something happens outside of America, but we don't celebrate and cheer when it happens, or tell them they got what they deserved. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for many other countries.

    Uhm actually, there is recorded footage of Americans cheering because of Hiroshima and saying that the Japanese deserved it.

    And don't say "it's different because of the war" because that's bs. War doesn't make cheering for civilian deaths acceptable.
  4. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Are you sure they weren't cheering for VJ day? Wether you think it was for the victory or for the bomb isn't important and off topic. Anyway all those people are either dead or in crooked nursing homes.
  5. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    War doesn't make cheering for civilian deaths acceptable.

    Is this a fact, or just your opinion?

    Of course people cheered when we bombed Japan. We hated the Japanese. Most people from that period in time still have a lot of hate for them. That might explain why the US doesn't care this or that happening in country X, because more than likely country X hates us, so to hell with them.
  6. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Some of these opinions are very saddening. So, because back in that period most americans hated Japan, that made it ok for you to cheer for civillians dying? But its not ok for countries that hate you to cheer when your civillians die?

    Anyway, that was just one clip of a very small amount of people cheering. Plus, there is alot of people that believe with good reason the footage to be fake.
  7. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Their good reason is that it doesn't serve their propaganda purposes. That footage has been proven authentic several times over, and the persistence of the internet rumors of its fakeness is just a function of willfull disbelief.

    The fact that palestinians did or did not cheer is off topic here, though. The point here is that there are some serious moral deformities permeating the logic that says that the blood of innocent people is on the head of the United States. There have been several attempts to catalouge the number of civilian deaths in Afghanistan which have resulted from US/Western bombing, with varied results. However, the logic in such counts is that as soon as the 3,120th civilian is killed, suddenly the war there becomes immoral. That willfully ignores one of the basic philosophical tenets, which is that there is a huge difference between intentionally targetting and killing and accidentally/unintentionally killing. To not differentiate between these two makes one a moral idiot, and makes obvious your agenda. Denying this basic moral distinction is not accidental; it is clearly motivated to state that the killing of Afghanis by Americans is murder.
  8. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Is this a fact, or just your opinion?

    This is an opinion obviously, but in my eyes it's still not acceptable. If you find it acceptable then there's nothing I can do about it, it just lowers my opinion of you as a human being that's all.

    Of course people cheered when we bombed Japan. We hated the Japanese. Most people from that period in time still have a lot of hate for them. That might explain why the US doesn't care this or that happening in country X, because more than likely country X hates us, so to hell with them.

    But it's an outrage when Palestinians cheer for Sept. 11th ? Double Standards are cool. Or maybe not.
  9. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    these double standards are the ones i am talking about. It is hard for many americans to see them.
  10. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    It doesn't matter how many have been killed. Just one dead innocent is enough. And please stop kidding yourselfs that this is a "war".

    Did any of you stop to think that when Bin Laden was giving his speech to to the guys gonna do the horrible deed he might have said something along the lines of "this is war, unfortunately innocent people being killed in war is inevitable".
  11. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Bin Laden did declare "war on America" if it interests you. So basically, he can say the same thing.
  12. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Okay, KD, I'll bite. What exactly is going on in Afghanistan, if not a war? I was under the impression that the US and other Western forces were intervening in Afghanistan to take the unrecognized Taliban government out of power and to install a regime that would provide Afghanistan with stability. The Taliban was fostering and indistinguishable from Al Qaeda, it was preventing the work of aid agencies in Afghanistan, it was openly encouraging terrorists groups to train, specifically those attacking India in the Kashmir and the perpetrators of the Cole, African Embassy and WTC bombings. They were a delinquent state, and refused to cooperate with international norms. When Western action began, there was not a single nation in the world that recognized their legitamacy.

    Sounds like a war to me. As for Al Qaeda, what else would you have be done about them? "Nothing" or "criminal trials" completely ignores the problem, to the extent that you are being completely unreasonable.

    One dead innocent enough? That sort of logic has one purpose, and that is to oppose the 'war', simply for opposition's sake. I invite you to offer viable and realistic alternatives; no doubt to you they will sound realistic, but these decisions need to be made in the real world, which I don't think you entirely grasp...especially with your inability to make moral distinctions.


    As for your Bin Ladin supposition, perhaps reading more of his statements would be useful. GAP, thank you for pointing out his 'declaration of war' (though I suspect you are going the entire wrong direction and missing the point, as well, if you are trying to morally justify intentinional attacks on buildings as his right as a warring party)...in addition, Bin Ladin considers citizens in the United States to be culpable parties and people that must die in the jihad against the West. The more the better.

    The norms of good behaviour can only be upheld, when pushed to the limit, by the threat or use of military power. That's what this is. It may not be a 'War on Terrorism', but it certainly is a war.
  13. 800-pound_ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 2
    i bow down to you teebee! you are a god!

    cheers!
  14. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    I'm not saying it's "right" , I'm saying he can "justify" it the same way.
  15. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Point being? If it is a false justification, why mention it?
  16. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    He can "justify" it the same way America can "justify" the killings.

    Neither are really justified. I acknowledge the fact that they probably will happen but that's not an excuse.
  17. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    Double standard, [face_laugh], please!

    I think it's funny that you speak of this double standard only existing for Americans. It exist for everyone. If the death of innocents is part of the price to protect even one American, then so be it.

    I expect the same feelings to be directed at the US from other countries. What you call a double standard, I see as caring about yourself first.
  18. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    GAP: Okay. Either you are intentionally disregarding common moral sense or have none. Doesn't matter to me either way.


    CUBIE: I don't think you know what you are talking about, either.
  19. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "If the death of innocents is part of the price to protect even one American, then so be it."

    That's an iffy statement there, Cubie. I'm an American myself, and I really don't think that non-Americans have less of a right to live than we do.
  20. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I think Bin Laden's 'war' has been responded to appropriately. I think we were cheering when the last bomb was dropped in Japan was because the war was over. And yes, WWII and this 'war on terror' are drastically different, we were fighting a nation then. Is there a nation of Bin Laden? Does he have his face printed on currency? If the answer is no, then you guessed right. Yes, I agree with the sentiment that if you can't distinguish between an intentional killing and an accidental killing then you are a moral idiot. Did those hijackers accidently land their planes in our towers? War is hell deal with it. If you can't stomach innocents dying in a war then don't watch the news because you're gonna see something about innocents dying somewhere.

    And why is it everyone holds America to these moral high standards? I mean you know we're not infallable, and neither is your country. I think most people who protest America's actions will always protest us because that's the 'thing' to do. Oh that and political motivations.
  21. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "So, because back in that period most americans hated Japan, that made it ok for you to cheer for civillians dying?"

    We didn't cheer for civilians dying, Damo. We cheered for the end of a very long war--and hell, we even won. Our guys would be coming home, and our lives could get back to normal. That's definitely worthy of a good cheer.
  22. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    I don't think you would care about me bitching about Verhofstadt.

    I'm not holding the killings to the same standards, I'm talking about the "civilians die in war, get used to it" talk. That's BS. The moment that you get used to civilians dieing is the moment that you use your moral highground.
  23. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Can't lose a moral high ground if you never had it to begin with. ;) It's true, innocents will die in war. The same thing happens with justifying putting a hit on your wife because she annoys you. You can't justify that either. So you're saying we should be like "Oh, innocents died, too bad. Next raid!"?
  24. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry Red-Seven, I'm not as all knowing as you.

    Darth Geist, it's more like this: It's the US vs. Al Qaeda. There's going to be fighting, and people are going to die, and this includes soldiers and civilians. I would rather those that are against us and their families and fellow country men to die instead of mine. I expect others to feel to feel the same way with regards to themselves.

  25. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    So you're saying we should be like "Oh, innocents died, too bad. Next raid!"?

    That's exactly the same thing as "Civilians die in a war, get used to it."
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