Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I don't think many people are as selfish as you Cubie. I mean, it almost sounds like your getting a twisted satisfaction from the fact that its Afghanistan civillians dieing and not American ones.
  2. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Yes but you see, we try to justify it and then you throw it in our faces when we do. So I'm asking if you expect us to say that very same thing?


    Also I think we should do that, no apology, no nothing if this is the garbage that's gonna be spewed at us every time we make a mistake.
  3. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    But it's an outrage when palestinians cheer september 11?.

    GAP: Yes it is. We are not in a declared war with palestinians, and we were with Japan. Japan had decided that the only barrier to it's expansion was the US pacific fleet, and so they bombed pearl harbor. If you remember your history, up until that point, the US tried rather hard to stay out of the war. If we had, the world would be a very different place than it is now (try reading "The Man in the High Castle" by Philip K. Dick, it offers a very chilling view of a post-axis victory world).
    While many palestinians take issue with US support of Israel, it is no more appropriate for them to have celebrated 9/11 than it would be for americans to cheer every time Israel goes into the west bank and gaza. And we don't. Most times, we just shake and heads and ask ourselves 'when will this stop?'.

    So yes, it's an outrage. It shows just how much contempt they have for our country, as all the while they call for our help, our support, our money, our pressure on Israel.

    Double standard, anyone?

    V-03
  4. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    But they didn't even get an apology, which is the whole point, to them it seems like the US doesn't give a damn about them.

    Vaderized, the people who were cheering were a minority and they were in their minds just as much at war with America as America was with Japan, don't forget that America allows their family and friends to be killed by Israel, that the bullets have "made in America" on them. Why does Pearl Harbor give Americans more of an excuse to cheer then Deir Yassin gives to the Palestinians?
  5. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    You didn't apologise. Im so sick of this attitude from selfish, arrogant, ignorant americans. Most americans are clever. But they are just blinded. You guys have the facts right in front of your eyes and your still trying to convince yourself and me that you really are sorry, but this is a just war. When are you gonna wake up? When Bush suggests you go to war with the entire world??
  6. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    What would the rest of the world do then? We wouldn't be on their side to help them win.

    Latre! :D
  7. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    You didn't apologise. Im so sick of this attitude from selfish, arrogant, ignorant americans. Most americans are clever. But they are just blinded. You guys have the facts right in front of your eyes and your still trying to convince yourself and me that you really are sorry, but this is a just war. When are you gonna wake up? When Bush suggests you go to war with the entire world??

    Maybe it's arrogance, certainly not ignorance. Hey, while we're at it, where's our apology for killing our civilians? Hmmm....? Oh it's in the mail? Okay! Yeesh, get real, how exactly do you know we didn't apologize? Really, just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it didn't occur. Does it?
  8. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    FID, and I quote:

    "We are ruined," he said. "We thought the Americans were good people. But they just drop their bombs and leave. They don't explain. They don't apologize. They don't even offer to pay for what they did."

    Thank you.
  9. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    The White House issued a statement Tuesday, saying President Bush "extends his deep condolences for the loss of innocent life" in Afghanistan

    edit: full statement

    "The president is concerned about reports from Afghanistan that innocent lives were lost in the conduct of joint U.S.-Afghan military operations in Oruzgan province today. We do not yet know exactly what happened and we are working very hard to find out. A joint U.S.-Afghan investigation team arrived in Oruzgan today [Tuesday] and has already begun [its] fact-finding mission. [Its] findings will result in a comprehensive report.

    "On behalf of the American people, the president extends his deep condolences for the loss of innocent life no matter what the cause is determined to be. In the meantime, we are consulting with Afghan authorities on the humanitarian needs of the people in the area.

    "The Afghan people have played a critical role in our joint war against terrorism. The United States greatly appreciates their support in this vital struggle. Working together, our nations have made important progress in defeating terrorism and we have given Afghanistan the hope of a better tomorrow. The United States is committed to helping Afghanistan's new government ensure that the country is never again a haven for terror. We are actively supporting Afghanistan's efforts to provide for its own security and to rebuild after decades of war and oppression. The United States is determined to work in partnership with Afghanistan to see these efforts through in the months and years ahead."
  10. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    No apology huh, GAP?


    Let me put a new twist on that quote for ya.

    "We are ruined," he said. "We thought the Saudis were good people. But they just hijack our planes and crash. They don't explain. They don't apologize. They don't even offer to pay for what they did."

    :D That work for ya?

    Hey, I'm also waiting for the "Isn't it about time terrorists stop killing innocents?" thread, I'm sure that'll be a real winner too.
  11. CUBIE_HOLE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    You guys have the facts right in front of your eyes and your still trying to convince yourself and me that you really are sorry, but this is a just war. When are you gonna wake up? When Bush suggests you go to war with the entire world??

    Well, this is how I see it, but please feel free to point out more. There are people, an organization, terrorists, etc. that want to kill Americans. They want to kill me because I'm an American. They want to kill my family and friends because they're Americans. They want to destroy everything about my way of life.

    Therefore, the country that I belong, decides that it must pursue these people and take necessary means to stop them from accomplishing their goals. Sounds pretty just to me. The US is taking steps continue its existence and protect itself.

    I don't get satisfaction out of the innocent being killed. However, innocents will die, they always have, and they always will. If your country had been attacked, would you rather your country attack whoever did it, even though innocents would die as a result, or would you rather country do nothing about, and continue to be attacked and have innocent people in your country die?

    edit: Hey, I'm also waiting for the "Isn't it about time terrorists stop killing innocents?" thread, I'm sure that'll be a real winner too.

    I'm sure it would be very popular with many of the anti-American members
  12. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Something I now wonder . . .

    When Americans bomb innocent civilians (by mistake, mind you) there's an outcry. 'People' tell us we have no right to be there.

    When terrorists bomb innocent American civilians on the other hand (or innocent Israeli civilians, for that matter) all I hear is "You brought it on yourselves, screwing around where you weren't wanted! Your fault! Youuuuurs!"

    :confused:

    Is it a new fad to cheer for the terrorists? Or is it just a veiled anti-American/anti-Israeli sentiment?
  13. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    For once I agree with Starfire, I'm wondering the same thing. People claim America is a bunch of hypocrites and arrogant, yet they do not see those very same qualities in themselves.
  14. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Actually, innocent people are dieng all the time here. I live in Ireland. And believe me, each side does do something about people being killed. How, you ask? By killing more people. It results in endless tit for tat killing that will never end until both sides grow up. So yeah, i know what happens when you try to do something about killings by killing yet more people.
  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    This is true with everything. Have you ever heard of the chaos theory? I hope I put this the right way, but the theory is that nature works on a cycle once there's peace it is only a matter of time before chaos ensues. I think that's basically what's happening now. Oh and our policy on terrorism gave other countries the green light to say that "America does it, why can't we?" I personally hate our policy on terror, we could have done it differently, but what we have now is what we're stuck with.

    I hate violence, it sickens me, I know that a measure of good can come from it. And I also know what evil can come from it too, and killing civilians is going to happen as it always does in war, but you can't just look at one side of it. Which from this thread it appears you're doing. The arguments made for us not to kill civilians is the same argument that can be made for terrorists. The only problem with that is that we listen and work our way around it, terrorists don't. I hope that made sense.
  16. 800-pound_ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 2
    what makes me sick is that after 9/11 people were asking "why? why did they do this to us? why do they hate us?" it's as if it was our fault in the first place. they ask these questions so as to prevent "our" faults from happening again. why is it, all of a sudden, our duty to not piss these people off? it's as if it's our fault when other nations hate us. not only that - we get bashed and ridiculed when we retaliate with military force with fair warning and ultimatums before a trigger is pulled. we fully warned them. "give us bin laden or else!" unfortunately for them, they chose else!

    innocent casualties are inevitable in every war. we suffered thousands of those before this friggin war even started. at least we warned them.

    and another thing! sucide bombers suck major bull cookies! there's no use in trying to justify the actions of those psychotic bastards!

    whew! ok. i'm done ranting... for now.

    cheers!
  17. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    What the heck was that? You call that an argument?
  18. 800-pound_ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 2
    sorry. i was just watching this thing on cnn and suddenly felt like bursting. heh heh. i'll try not to let it happen again. ;)

    cheers!
  19. Darth_Drunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1
    Yes, by killing Al Queda, we are making other Al Queda mambers angrier. But, by taking out their leadership, training grounds and other essentials, you take away their power to kill.


    Oh, and since all the weapons the Palestinians use have "made in the USSR" printed on them, does that give Israel the right to bomb the Eastern Bloc countries? You seem to think that Kane.
  20. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Don't forget that america allows their friends and families to be killed by Israel, that the bullets have 'made in america' stamped on them..

    GAP, your arguments are woefully one-sided. I will tell you quite plainly that america doesn't 'allow' anybody to do anything, certainly not in the middle east. By phrasing it in this manner, you are simply accusing the United States of backing Israel and not the palestinians. Israel would be doing what it is doing regardless of what the US has to say. The Clinton administration put far more pressure on Israel, and never really put it's foot down on arafat's flaws. By doing this, Clinton gave Arafat the laisse-faire go-ahead to return home and start the first intifadeh. Israel responded by voting in hard-liners. This is about as far as america is willing to go with Israel. If america cut off arms shipments, Israel would manufacture them on their own, or buy them from elsewhere. I'm sure Russia and China would be delighted to trade arms for cash.

    Which leads me to my next point. I fail to understand why 'supporting' Israel seems to leave such a bitter taste in your mouth when the alternative is backing a group of governments whose lack of credibility and support of terrorism is res ipsa loquitor. I can pretty much guarantee you that the bombs made in the west bank and gaza don't have 'made in america' stamped on them, although I'm sure that countries like Iran have absolutely no role in supplying such equipment to the palestinians (yes that is sarcasm). As a matter of fact, I also fail to understand why supporting Israel is so deplorable when saddam hussein pays the families of suicide bombers $25,000. Do you ever wonder where that money comes from? Is an iraqi child starving because of this? I am willing to bet yes. Yet your criticism tends to come almost exclusively of Israel and the US. Why is that? What have our two societies done that is so deplorable to you? Neither of us have engaged in actions any less barbaric than the enemies we fight. And please don't give me the 'but mommy he does it too argument'. It is cliche at this point. In addition, what happened right after Israel's last withdrawal from the palestinian terroritories? Bombings. Several. Had they not occured, a peace process might have started. But no, the palestinians felt that they were entitled to some 'freebies' first-and here we are, in the current situation.

    Let's say Israel disappeared tomorrow, and the US removed itself from middle eastern affairs. What would happen? Would there be world peace? Absolutely not. The same arab governments that cultivate anti-americanism would then turn that hatred towards europe. They are doing it now. The fact that al qaeda hasn't knocked down the eiffel tower or nerve-gassed antwerp doesn't mean that they are your friends. In fact, with 35% of mideast oil going to europe, most of the arab leadership probably thinks that they have brought europe to heel. The minute that sentiment were to change (as if, say, you limited muslim immigration to any EU country), where do you think the next wave of hatred and jealously would go?

    America and Europe need to present a united front. America needs to get over it's policeman attitude and europe needs to put aside the holier-than-thou criticism which is almost always followed by cries for more money more troops more support america, and we need to work together on solving things like the war on terrorism and the middle east. All this fighting does is make us easier targets-all of us.

    By the way, whoever said "where is the 'isn't it about time terrorists stopped killing innocents' thread", power to ya!

    Peace,

    V-03

  21. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    The title of this thread only furthers my quote in my sig. Many of the threads in the Senate floor are in reality a form of flaming. If I was someone else, I know how I could make a long thread of my own, by making rash generalizations and stupid comments that incite people to respond.

    If I said, "isn?t it about time Lord Bane stopped banning innocent members?" I think the reaction would be much different. But I digress, I feel the need to help people realize there intellectually inferiority. :p Like that ever happens, it is probably the other way around...

    But I will bite on this thread. The contention of the thread is all wrong. For the US to stop killing innocents, it would have to stop fighting. If the US stopped fighting, I don't think you or most anyone else would like the consequences. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It isn't like we intetionally kill innocent people, unlike our enemies, we make mistakes. Should we correct our mistakes? Of course. You sound like we wanted to go in there and bomb a wedding for the fun of it. I am sure that C-130 crew feels real great about what they accidentally did.

    We are fighting those who kill innocent people delibratly. Red-Seven sounds like NPR, the contention that once we reach 3,120 deaths in Afganistan our war is suddenly illegitamate is stupid.
  22. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    "Red-Seven sounds like NPR, the contention that once we reach 3,120 deaths in Afganistan our war is suddenly illegitamate is stupid."

    Actually it sounded like Red-Seven was pointing that out as being ridiculous... but is it really true that it's the prevailing theory at NPR? How typical... and they're doing it with my money too. How snooty.
  23. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    This is a really bizarre story...the US media does propoganda, but it doesn't make the stuff up. And NO ONE seems to know how those people got injured...at least yet.
  24. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    There's been several stories that continually come up. First was that it was an errant bomb, then we find out that they were shooting in celebration, then we find out that there were nearby anti-aircraft placements (6 I think). There's an investigation underway and I'm curious what it will find. The crew was definitely being shot at, but they think that random machinegun fire wouldn't have been close or accurate enough to make the pilots think they were being shot. So now they think someone was using the anti-aircraft and that the explosion of munitions killed the people. We will probably know by Monday.
  25. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

    Isn't it about time everybody stopped killing innocents? :confused:
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