Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    "Isn't it about time we stopped pretending that the culture over there is wrong?"
    "something inherent in the Muslim religion makes SOME people become fantatical"

    If i was a muslim, i would really have been offended.
  2. Vaderbait Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Why? It wasn't a jab, you just like to look at it that way. I'm not him/her, so I don't know what they were thinking, but I think it'd be fair to say they just mentioned Muslims because that's what we were talking about. They could've listed all other religions.

    Obviously SOMETHING in SOME religion can be turned into ammo for a fanatic. That's all he/she was saying.
  3. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I agree that a fanatic can twist ANY religion to mean what they want it to and to justify their own violent acts. But i don't think thats what that particular person was saying.
  4. Vaderbait Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Well, I'm not sure either, so I guess we just have to wait for their response, eh? :p
  5. yodafett999 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    Okay, I read through this and most of my points were raised and countered and then slammed against brick walls and thus went nowhere.

    I have a question. What did you want us to do?

    We apologized. Tenor posted the apology a few pages back. That's all we can do in this kind of situation unless you were saying that, based on the fact that a civilians have died, we should leave the area immediately. Is that what you're saying?

    If so then you're going to have to prepare yourself for the answer that we are not leaving until we accomplish what we need to. Whether it's right or wrong in your eyes we were attacked and we have waged a war on those attackers and all who follow them. As long as there are still followers, as long as there are still people out there creating problems in the name of our enemies, we will probably not stop.

    It is sad that innocent civilians died and, though it's a part of war (officially declared or not), it doesn't diminish the sadness that should be felt for the loss.

    I would say that you are completely correct in saying that, had 9/11 not happened, we wouldn't be where we are today. Unfortunately, it did and we are. Previous to this, Pearl Harbor was the biggest non-provoked (and I'll add "overtly" in there for you people that believe we had this coming) attack on US soil and we all know how that turned out. The world is a different place now though so I still hold out hope that a nuclear attack will never be needed. It is a possibility though, should further attacks find their way to our doorstep.

    So I'll ask again, what was it that you wanted us to do besides apologize?
  6. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    VaiderBait I don't think that people were specifically replying to you, I think they were replying more to the statements by JediLord that went something along these lines...

    That makes it sound like the moment you become a muslim you start going around and killing people and any morals and stuff go out the window. It seems to imply that there is something wrong with the religion rather then the people who believe that killing other people is okay.

    Kit
  7. Vaderbait Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    OK, I feel better now. :p Anyways, I still think he/she was just misunderstood. I can see how you could take it that way, though. But they also said "Not saying ALL Muslims". Maybe I'm just overanalyzing something that isn't meant to be analyzed in a huge analytical debate. :p
  8. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    OK... What i want done...

    The first thing is an apology. Thats already happened, but Bush sure did take his time with the apology. An apology should have been issued as soon as the news of the incedent broke.

    The second thing. For all the damage and losses and stuff to be payed for.

    The last thing. I want the president to seriously consider pulling out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden is long gone. You've certainly kicked the Taliban's ass, it would take years for them to fully recover, if they even could fully recover. And the longer you stay there, the more the Aghanistans hatred for the US grows.
  9. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7

    The first thing is an apology. Thats already happened, but Bush sure did take his time with the apology. An apology should have been issued as soon as the news of the incedent broke.

    That can be attributed to not having all the facts. If it turned out to have been an enemy firing at them he'd look hella dumb.

    The second thing. For all the damage and losses and stuff to be payed for.

    We're paying them a lot to rebuild, you want us to pay more?

    The last thing. I want the president to seriously consider pulling out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden is long gone. You've certainly kicked the Taliban's ass, it would take years for them to fully recover, if they even could fully recover. And the longer you stay there, the more the Aghanistans hatred for the US grows

    Al-Qaeda and the Taliban still haven't left, you realize? And the Afghan army kinda sucks right now. You really think after we leave things'll get better?
  10. Vaderbait Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Where is your proof that bin Laden is not there? We don't have any proof, that's the problem. Our job also isn't done in Afghanistan, see, if we left now, the chaos that would result would be blamed on us for "not finishing the job". [face_plain]
  11. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    FIRE_ICE_DEATH:

    I dont have that picture of the retard running to post or I would, and by the way you have been making good points...

    POT_SMOKING_PANZIES:
    shut up, you are obviously peacenicks that have no clue how real polotics work, without an army a country will be destroyed, and quick! Conventional warfare is never terrorism, and you know what, I have written news paper articles (pre 9-11) stating how terrorism would be the pre-emminent weapon of the 21st century. and about weapons/army comparisons. Military power must be used in certain cases, this is not a despute over the price of oil or food, it is war, we were attacked.

    For those of you arguing about religion, let me outline it so the communists on this board can understand...

    in the christian faith, there are different denomenations, like: catholic, prodestant, methodist, mormon... (yes i understand some are part of the others...) and with the muslim faith there are different, but not defined denominations, lets say the fanatics, and non fanatics...

    the fanatics see us as the enemy, they will stop at nothing to kill us, even killing themselves to do it(martyrdom). the only solution/counter to this problem is to wipe them out, Not all muslims, but the muslims of this undefined denomination... EXTERMINATION of this group is key to our safety. one way or another.

    I hope this clears things up for you pasifists...
  12. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I find it amazing how much the US is condemned for allowing its soldiers to defend themselves in a war zone. Let's consider an alternative sequence of events:

    A plane carrying US troops is apparantly fired upon by a group of people while conducting combat operations in a war zone. The crew of that plane then has two options:

    1. They land the plane, the pilot steps out, walks over to the group of people and asks, "Excuse me, but were you aiming at us?", thereby running the risk of getting killed.

    or

    2. They return fire in self defense and call in support, risking killing some civilians.

    Which would you choose if you were the pilot of the plane? How about his commanding officer (with a responsibility to those men on the plane)? How about their Commander in Chief?

    I know which one I'd choose.

    Kimball Kinnison
  13. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    number 2 definately

    if you were walking around with a gun, and someone was firing in your general direction, close enough that you think you are being targeted, would you return fire, or ignore it and say, "oh he might be an innocent civilian, just following an old tradition..."


    the reason for this thread is very evident, the poster is trying point out how clueless he is to reality...
  14. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I have complete contempt for the kind of person you are Warsloth. Your a vulgure person. You throw insults like "retard" and, haha, "communist" around the place. Can't you argue without resorting to your big bullie boy tactics? Oh if i wasn't afraid of being banned again, i would call you what got me banned before. Because thats exactly how low i think of you, your dirt, lower than dirt.
  15. Darth_Nemesis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Isn't it about time we the united states nuke someone again, it's been around what 50-60 years?
  16. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    Nazis were members of a political party, a party that I am not a part of, and dont share very many KEY beliefs with, like I said you can call me a nazi, but you will be wrong. oh, Im not a bully, im a kind person, who likes target shooting, and freedom, I enjoy freedom the most. And you cant be a free country without stepping on some toes, and just for the record, your type of personality, the laid back liberal, who enjoys pot, doesn't exactly please me, but hey, you can always found a peacnick country, and complain when you are working for the fascist dictator that took you over the following day...
  17. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    by the way kaine damo, when you visualize the type of person I am what do you see?

    if im lower than dirt so be it!
    you call me a bully, but I have yet to insult you or your intelligence, I only point out that I am better founded in my views than you...
    suck it up, I could lay seige to you, and bring drama to this forum, but I dont see it as a debate of personal character. So give it up.
    By the way, if you were planning on twisting my posts to say that I hate retards, and innocent people, therefore Im a nazi who Hates in general. You are going to need to word it very cleverly, just in case people actually read them(my posts).
  18. Darth_Nemesis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    I agree with you war sloth, some of these countries just like to make trouble because they are not as powerful or rich as we are. We, the U.S. got where we are now by ourselves and our hard working nation. And if you want to screw with our nation expect retaliation. Yes, war is terrible, and innocent people die, that is the way of things.
  19. JediLord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2000
    star 4
    Here's something to chew on: we have had nuclear bombs longer than anyone. we used then only on Japan, at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Israel has nuclear bombs, yet they don't use them. Now, if Palestine had them, do you think they would show the same restraint we did? No, they would have nuked the Jews a long time ago. So whatever you WANT to believe about them is fine, juts remember the facts that we see everyday by these suicide bombers.
  20. JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    Kimball_Kinnison:

    I'd take option 2 in a heartbeat. As the line in the book Withour Remorse goes, "A fair fight is one where all my people go home."

    KaineDamo:
    Before you go off half-cocked on this, I'll toss in some advice from a guy called Massad Ayoob (probably paraphrased). "If you wait to see the gun, you WILL see what comes OUT of the gun."

    JediLord:
    I have to agree with you, but I would characterize my views as being colored by the reaction TO the suicide bombers, particularly, the fact the are considered heroes.

    Quite frankly, I have great difficulty accepting as legitimate any claims made by a side that treats people who walk into a supermarket with a Semtex jacket and set off the Semtex, or who hijack a plane loaded with civilians and crash it into a building as heroes.

    Compare that to the actions of two men, [link=http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/mohsom.htm]Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart[/link], who attempted to rescue fallen comrades against odds that were stacked against them. Those two men were heroes.
  21. chibiangi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    "The last thing. I want the president to seriously consider pulling out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden is long gone. You've certainly kicked the Taliban's ass, it would take years for them to fully recover, if they even could fully recover. And the longer you stay there, the more the Aghanistans hatred for the US grows."

    Sorry, but while the Taliban (and by extension Al Queda) as a regime in total power may be gone, they certainly are a continued presence in Afghanistan. The area is still littered with Taliban and that is why we are still there. The recent assasination of one of the Afghan Vice Presidents is a prime example of the need for a continued presence in the area.


  22. shds Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 2
    "A plane carrying US troops is apparantly fired upon by a group of people while conducting combat operations in a war zone. The crew of that plane then has two options:

    1. They land the plane, the pilot steps out, walks over to the group of people and asks, "Excuse me, but were you aiming at us?", thereby running the risk of getting killed.
    or
    2. They return fire in self defense and call in support, risking killing some civilians."
    ----

    That's all very well except for one thing: there were teams of US Special Forces on the ground who had been observing the site "for TWO days." Also, that specific region had been "accidently" attacked TWICE by the US in the past year killing civilians and pro-Western Afghan forces. You'd think that someone would take the trouble to verify whether spraying four villages with heavy machine gunfire is a good idea.

    "U.S. military officials said a Special Forces ground team spotted fire from antiaircraft weapons and called in an airstrike." - [link=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26006-2002Jul4.html]Sandals and Shrapnel Dot Attack Site[/link]


    "I pray [God] will punish those who did this. Even burning them in an oven would not be good enough. I want nothing but their heads." - Afghan woman

    "Anti-American rage gripped the nearby villages of Shatoghai, Siasung and Mazar, also hit in the US bombardment.

    "One day God will give us the strength and we will fight them," said Haji Wali, whose home in Shatoghai was attacked.

    "Even during the Russian's occupation (1979-1989) there was never such a sustained bombing of the area. We are weak and they are oppressing us," he railed.

    He scoffed at compensation, saying coalition forces had offered the villagers' tents.

    "They want to please us by providing us with four tents. Is two or four tents worth the price of our lives?

    "Would the Americans forgive us if we killed two Americans and give them two tents in return? The Taliban used to lock us in jail, but they would not bomb us and dishonour our women." - [link=http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4658954%255E2,00.html]US forces 'bullied' bomb victims[/link]
  23. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    I agree with you war sloth, some of these countries just like to make trouble because they are not as powerful or rich as we are. We, the U.S. got where we are now by ourselves and our hard working nation. And if you want to screw with our nation expect retaliation. Yes, war is terrible, and innocent people die, that is the way of things.

    Actually, I think WWI and WWII had alot to do with it, also the fact that America had most of the European gold etc after that.

    If America had been a neighbouring country to Germany you wouldn't be were you are right now.

    You worked hard, I give you that, but don't contribute it all too that.

    And lastly, nobody hates you for being "rich". It's nice to see how quickly you believe all that propaganda BS.

    (oh and before you go of about me being Jalous, I happen to live in Vlaanderen , which is the worlds 3th richest district. That means it's richer then most parts of America.)
  24. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    "I dont have that picture of the retard running to post or I would, and by the way you have been making good points..."

    That sucks, oh and thanks.

    I have complete contempt for the kind of person you are Warsloth. Your a vulgure person. You throw insults like "retard" and, haha, "communist" around the place. Can't you argue without resorting to your big bullie boy tactics? Oh if i wasn't afraid of being banned again, i would call you what got me banned before. Because thats exactly how low i think of you, your dirt, lower than dirt.

    Hey, next time you think of insulting someone by calling them lower than dirt, think about what you type before you post it. If that's Warsloth's opinion then good, but your commentary on his opinion only inflames him into reacting just as badly against you. Oh and I've seen you resort to the same 'big bully' tactic that you're accusing him of now. So even if you had a point before, you certainly don't have one now that you've gone and done the same damn thing. I hope this is a good lesson in violence for you since you've been claiming you hate violence the whole time, yet you won't back down when someone has an opinion? Interesting....
  25. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    There are opinions...

    "arguing on the internet is like participating in the special olympics, whether you win or lose, you are still a retard..."

    And then there is that complete rubbish above. What would you have me do? Ignore him when he calls me a pot smoking communist retard? These aren't opinions! Lets get back on topic here.
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