Isn't It About Time The US Stopped Killing Innocents?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 2, 2002.

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  1. Warsloth Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    it simply says its pointless to argue on the internet, you can flame all day, but you aren't going to get anywhere, also I never said you were a retard, you said it yourself... I just made a generalized statement about flaming...
  2. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Warsloth, you may try to make it look as though your making generalizations, but common sense tells me your directing those comments at me. Let me show you... How about this for a generalization...

    You can make all the clever statements and words you want, make all the generalizations you want, claim the reason you don't care about Aghanistans dying is purely for political reasons, but at the end of the day your still just a you know what. (PS, not directed at Warsloth)

    Maybe not as subtle as your ranting generalizations, but i'll live. As i said before, lets get back on topic.
  3. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    ...make us socialist (national socialist?)

    That's the worst covered flame ever boy. And it's incorrect too, National Socialists and Socalists have different ideals. National Socialists are far right while Socialists are left.

    Just because it has "socialist" in it's name does not mean that it has the same ideals.

  4. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Warsloth you might want to tone it down a little...

    Kit
  5. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Why is this thread still open? It's subject line is SO biased against the US and won't lead to discussion, just a bunch of arguments...

    EDIT: Oh yeah, lets ban Warsloth, cb, real nice [face_plain]

    While I don't agree with him, he's just stating his opinion. He's no more confrontational than others in this thread *cough* KaineDamo *cough*.
  6. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I've only been confrontational when Warsloths offended me. Many times i've said lets get back on topic. But Warsloth just can't seem to let it go.
  7. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    KaineDamo, I'd be careful, you're walking the line. [face_plain]

    Anyways, what are we still debating here? Damo thinks Americans are bloodthirsty killers who are hell bent on destruction. He/she should be happy we don't pay her country a visit then, right?

    Now, for those with common sense (even those who disagree with the US, but actually have legitimate reasons), we can continue to debate this in a civil manner with no fear of our words being twisted so badly, and with no fear of being antagonized by Kaine Damo.

    Who's with me?
  8. andakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    In response to the original post
    "( i hear that the US Media can be very propeganda like )"

    Yes, it can be propaganda-like. The Media is ruled by the left, and we hear far more about stories like this than makes sense. My heck, they haven't even investigated the scene. For all we know, it could have been terrorists. The Media tells us what the Afghans say, while ignoring the progress we're making.

  9. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    KaineDamo consider yourself on thin ice. Warsloth was banned just a bit more than what you are doing.
  10. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I think this topic has run its course for the most part. Some of you have been very compassionate for the loss of the Afghanistans, others haven't, though good points have been made on both sides. I'm not sure theres anything new to be said concerning this.
  11. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    I am surprised Warsloth was banned and not KaineDamo. From what I read, it looked like it was the other way around.
  12. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Actually they're both at fault. Warsloth for continuing it, no offense, and Kaine for instigating it.
  13. Kun2112 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    this topic is a three-edged-sword.
    do you honestly think that americans get a kick out of bombing third world countries? it the right of a sovriegn nation to defend itself aganist attacks on its citizens, intrests, and allies. this is one of the primary functions of any government.
    civilan deaths are an unfortunate by-product of war. however, gone are the days of 800 bombers laying waste to 40square kilometers. america, as a whole, is more consience of foriegn civilian deaths than most other nations on the Earth. as to the comment pertaining to america not caring about 100,000 deaths from an earthquake on the other side of the world, you are greatly mistaken. america is often the first country to offer aid in these situations. as a matter of fact, america has only called for repayment on 30-40% of its loans to foriegn countries. the rest have been dismissed.
    as far as the news not reporting certian events because of the american media's "propaganda like nature", you are again greatly mistaken. i knew about the wedding party incident within hours.
    and in response to america keeping out of places where it does not belong: i think america should return to an isolationist policy for about ten or fifteen years, so opponets of our forign policy would see the influence we have on global stability.
    now, i respect your opinion, but i think you do not have all the facts, and have a general misunderstanding of american society. i have traveled all over the world and have discovered that people are pretty much the same everywhere you go, with the excption of the obvious cultural differences, which do not change the fact that we all as a human society want basically the same things out of life and the world.
  14. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    SHDS:

    You have posted the following:

    "U.S. military officials said a Special Forces ground team spotted fire from antiaircraft weapons and called in an airstrike." - Sandals and Shrapnel Dot Attack Site
    Seems like a good idea to me. Even though there had been mistakes made there before, we ask our military to make split second decisions to defend themselves. Let's say you were out hunting near a prison where a well publicized escapee was fleeing. There are cops looking everywhere. If I were you I would pack up my hunting gear and head home so not to draw attention to myself by shooting a deer. If we have been flying by and have spcial forces around you may want to put a temporary hold on AK47 wedding celebrations. I think that is common sense.


    "I pray [God] will punish those who did this. Even burning them in an oven would not be good enough. I want nothing but their heads." - Afghan woman
    "Anti-American rage gripped the nearby villages of Shatoghai, Siasung and Mazar, also hit in the US bombardment.
    "One day God will give us the strength and we will fight them," said Haji Wali, whose home in Shatoghai was attacked.
    "Even during the Russian's occupation (1979-1989) there was never such a sustained bombing of the area. We are weak and they are oppressing us," he railed.

    These comments prove that once we cease operations there this country will fall into chaos again. While I understand there anger I never heard Daniel Pearl's wife say that burning his murderers would not be enough.

    He scoffed at compensation, saying coalition forces had offered the villagers' tents. "They want to please us by providing us with four tents. Is two or four tents worth the price of our lives? "Would the Americans forgive us if we killed two Americans and give them two tents in return? The Taliban used to lock us in jail, but they would not bomb us and dishonour our women."
    Sorry we haven't had time to get our engineers and contractors there to build new homes yet. Guess what people living in Afghanistan orchestrated planes crashing into our buildings and causing over 3,000 deaths and we haven't seen two tents yet.

    Have a nice day.

    Edits:spelling and formatting
  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I don't know about you, but those quotes are from a french agency or so it seems. I get the impression that the French government is becoming increasingly anti-American. So if this is from a french agency are we sure that we can trust that those are actual quotes?
  16. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Even if those quotes are fake, which i doubt, im sure they give a fair representation to what the general thoughts are of the victims of those dead. I mean, i doubt any of them said "ah well, it was an honest mistake, no harm no foul, alls forgiven".
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    I'd like to address a point shds made a few pages back, when he alleged that American troops had massacred Taliban prisoners in Mazar-i-Sharif.

    The allegations he refers to are presented in Irish director Jamie Doran's short film Massacre in Mazar. Doran's evidence, as presented in the film, consists of three interviews--little more than hearsay--and the presence of an old mass grave. He assumes that Americans dug the grave to bury their victims--but in making that assumption, he makes two key errors. One: The remains are much too old to have originated from last November, as he claims. Two: He apparently missed this, an Amnesty International report of a Taliban-sponsored massacre in that very same region, four years ago.

    By all appearances, this massacre was not an atrocity against the Taliban, but the work of the Taliban itself.

    EDIT: Allow me to amend that.

    While the Taliban did indeed conduct a civilian massacre in the region, it does appear that Taliban prisoners were killed there last November. However, the prisoners were not in the custody of U.S. soldiers, but of one General Abdul Malik, a warlord with a long-time grudge against the Taliban.

    We may not know the whole story yet, but to lay the blame for whatever may have happened at the feet of America and only America is as premature as it is destructive.
  18. shds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 2
    "Let's say you were out hunting near a prison where a well publicized escapee was fleeing. There are cops looking everywhere. If I were you I would pack up my hunting gear and head home so not to draw attention to myself by shooting a deer. If we have been flying by and have spcial forces around you may want to put a temporary hold on AK47 wedding celebrations. I think that is common sense"

    This is Afghanistan, not some city in the US. Firing is routinely seen and heard in the remoter Afghan areas.

    "Off in the distance, they suddenly heard a burst of machine-gun fire. And then another. It came from the direction of the city, miles away, possibly factional fighting among the locals. Nothing related to their mission. Nothing for them to do. They sat down again and waited for the helicopters to come take them back to their base." WashPost article on a 101st Airborne Division squad in Afghanistan

    "These comments prove that once we cease operations there this country will fall into chaos again. While I understand there anger I never heard Daniel Pearl's wife say that burning his murderers would not be enough."

    The place is already pretty much worse off than it was during the Taliban era the only exception being Kabul where there is a 5,000 strong ISAF force to keep the peace. Just recently, US Negotiators narrowly averted an all out confrontation between Rashid Dostums forces and another warlord in Mazar-E-Sharif(you didn't hear about THAT in the US media propaganda machine, did you?). The US is only interested in getting the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, all fine and well. But they have to keep the peace as it is or leave it better off. For all the Taliban faults, they were able to do one thing that no other ruler has done in Afghanistan for the past 23 years. The brought peace and complete security and are still respected for that. The US has now destroyed that. They are now under an obligation to ensure that their puppet warlords don't wreck it(the peace). but they aren't doing anything of the kind. US Northern Afghan allies and warlords are mostly responsible for the skyrocketing crime rate. A TIME article awhile back described how CIA agents hiring warlords men to search villages for Al-Qaeda/Taliban routinely watched those warlords men loot, pillage and rape while searching the villages for "terrorists." That stinks Soviet tactics and maybe that is acceptable to your average Joe. but you can understand how Americans are hated in parts of the world.

    "Guess what people living in Afghanistan orchestrated planes crashing into our buildings and causing over 3,000 deaths and we haven't seen two tents yet."

    Guess what, American-led sanctions against Iraq are responsible for the deaths of over one and a half MILLION innocents, five hundred thousand of them children under the age of five. Children alone continue to die at the rate of over five thousand a month as a direct result of sanctions. The sanctions have absolutely no effect on Saddam while it completely wrecks apart the average Iraqi. So the Iraqi people are now perfectly justified in nuking the US?

    Source 1
    Source 2
    Source 3
  19. DESERTJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
    All saddam has to do is let wepons inspectors back in. isn't it?

    and the sanctions would be lifted.
  20. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Basically that's it. When someone hits a tree, that they helped plant with their car full of passengers, who's fault is it? It's not the tree, it's the driver. Saddams the driver, the tree is the treaty he signed and the US is just part of the UN. The embargo is the UN's doing not the US, it's just that the US supports it's continued existence. It's Saddams fault 100%. We haven't done a thing to hurt the people. The embargo could have been lifted anytime he wanted, and all he has to do is let weapon inspectors into the country. Something he agreed to in order to keep himself in power.

    But if you need to find fault with the tree, the UN is the instagator, not the US. Russia, UK, France, SA, Kuwait, all were apart of this, so everyones guilty of their deaths by your logic. Why is it whenever something in the UN goes wrong it's always the US's fault?
  21. shds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 2
    "Why is it whenever something in the UN goes wrong it's always the US's fault?"

    If it weren't for the US, there wouldn't be sanctions. You can blame it on Saddam all you want but the fact is that we are keeping sanctions up and they are hurting only the Iraqi people and have been hurting only them for the past 10 years. Saddams status has consequently been considerably enhanced and the US is very understandarbly demonized. Regardless, the bottom line is that Americans shouldn't go about asking "Why do they hate us?."
  22. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    You poor wrongheaded soul. Why blame a bloodthirsty dictator hoping to use his citizens as political capital in his quest to flout his enemies foreign and domestic and aquire MORE WOMD -or- the governments of certain nations on the UN security council who think that making money trading weapons and getting cheap oil is better policy than enforcing UN standards on as implicitly important a topic as the proliferation of WOMD, especially in the case of a leader who has demonstrably proved he can and will use such weapons, when you can blame America, who is only trying to keep peace and stop a dictator from getting even nastier weapons and nukes?

    Maybe you're just hoping Saddam will send you a $20,000 blood money payment in return for you whoring your opinion arguing for him.
  23. QueenDorme Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 3
    In reply to the original post:

    America is extremely biased against other nations and the American news services are nothing more than propoganda.

    The US Government has only a handful of interests in mind in the Middle East; mainly oil, Jews and trade control.

    Ask the US why they supply ammunition to Israel but not to Palestine, and then enter into peace negotiations? There is a reason the Middle Eastern countries do not like the US.

  24. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Oh oh! Let me field this one!

    Because Palestine isn't actually a country yet and technically it's agaisnt the law for them to own weapons?

    Oh how about, because Israel has been a long time ally of the US?

    Or we could take the view that the terrorist groups in Palestine(would you like me to call them freedom fighters?) are so interlinked with whatever central authority there is, that weapons given to the governing body would quickly find their way to people who were going to slip into Isreali settlements and murder children in their beds.

    Not that the Israeli government is innocent mind you, but arming the Palestinians? You must be joking.
  25. 800-pound_ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 2
    israel was "created" after ww2 to give the damned-at-the-time jews their own state. it was the least that the allies(minus great britain) could do after what happened to them during the holocaust. the US was the leading supporter of this request for a jewish state and has been an ally to israel ever since the state was "created." it would only make sense that the US would aid israel when the state is under threat. why in the world would the US aid countries that are hostile to its allies? it only makes sense that the US would not act very friendly to nations that are hostile to israel- including the palestinians under arafat.

    cheers!
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