PT Isn't it destructive to Sith order when Sidious is always replacing one apprentice to the next?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Sudooku, May 31, 2014.

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  1. Sudooku Jedi Grand Master

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    May 31, 2014
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    ... instead to raise one reliable man who is his partner until he sees his end coming? I mean, the rule of the Two were made in order that the Sith-lords are becoming stronger and stronger by every generation. But Sidious told Anakin in the 3rd Prequel-Part that he thinks that Darth Plagueis was a fool by teaching his apprentice all of his knowledge. So that, if Anakin would have known, that Plagueis was the mentor of Sidious, he might have foreseen his own faith. And he saw it clearly when Sidious told the young Skywalker to kill his father.

    But having such behaviour in mind, an apprentice having in mind, that his master will never reveal all his knowledge to him in fear of being executed. What kind of stability is that? Thus the masters of the Sith will become weaker and weaker by every generation inspite of rising in knowledge and power as intended by Darth Bane

    Thus I think even when Sith are always thinking in extremes. Sidious was to extreme in his execution of insidious and ruthless power. Every society needs at least a bit of reliability and spirit of gluing together for being stable. Was Sidious just to good for his first apprentices to be overthrown by them, developing by and by a contempt for them and feeling the need to replace them by a better and stronger one? Or was he from the beginning not inclined to let rise his apprentices to really strong personalities, who could challenge him one day. Thus he is actually replacing the Rule of the Two by the Rule of One with some provisory, easily substitutable henchmen and stooges, nothing more?
  2. Hernalt Force Ghost

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    Jun 29, 2000
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    On the patron side there's probably a direct proportion of useful life expectancy remaining to quantity of skills held in reserve, and these are both inversely proportional to skills invested in the client for purposes of enforcement and legacy.
    On the client side there's probably a dynamic ratio of learned skills (client side) to projected unlearned skills (patron side) that could yet be learned, as the patron no doubt continues in his own specialization, which may or may not be of interest to the client, but may be useful, and at the patron's own rate, which may be greater than the client's. So the client has to calculate a multivariable problem of when to strike, involving the opportunity cost of not gaining what the patron has gained in his advanced studies, the general risk of striking without complete knowledge of the patron's undisclosed arsenal of defensive capability, the general weakness of a bond torn asunder (threefold cord of Ecclesiastes).
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  3. Bazinga'd Dark Lord of the SWC/PT/ Spinoff Forums

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    Sidious is replacing his apprentice (1) because they are killed (I suspect he planned to get rid of Dooku-once he found Anakin was going to be easy to manipulate), and (2) apprentice turnover helps ensure that one does not grow too strong to kill him. By ROTJ, he had maintained Vader/Anakin too long. :p
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  4. Sudooku Jedi Grand Master

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    May 31, 2014
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    Hi Bazinga,

    There is the episode about the fight between Silas and Maul, where Sidious is appearing to side with the victorious. Though this is not a part of the Prequel Trilogy, it is knitting the pattern tighter, starting to become clearer when Sidious commanded Anakin to kill Dooku. It became obvious when he tried to manipulate Luke Skywalker to kill his father in the same way.

    1. So either the apprentice is killed while acting in a mission on behalf of his lord. Then he is anyway not capable to take his master's place when his time would have come.

    2. Or his lord lets him get killed by his (the apprentice's) successor, before he becomes to strong and hence really challenging for his master. A really bad dilemma of choices for a Sith-apprentice. :(
    Last edited by Sudooku, May 31, 2014
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Palpatine didn't intend for Maul to be killed, as Lucas noted. He turned Dooku because he could and used him to keep the plan in motion while Anakin was trained by Obi-wan and then turned. He pitted Anakin against Dooku in order to get what he wanted. Vader wants to turn Luke so that they can overthrow Palpatine together. Sidious wants Luke to kill Vader since he'll be what he father was before Obi-wan screwed things up. It's all about the power.
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  6. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    Dooku was pretty much just Palpatine's tool. He used his charisma and reputation for politics (mainly, building up the CIS to spur on the Clone Wars) and to hold off his need for an apprentice until he could find a true replacement for Maul
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  7. Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost

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    As long as he is at the top then everything is OK.
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  8. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

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    Not destructive if the Sith apprentices keep getting killed by lowlife Jedi. To be fair, though, Sidious wanted Anakin to be his apprentice so he bent the rules a bit.
  9. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    no. it makes the sith continually stronger.
  10. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't hate it. Evil often doesn't make sense, and that's what the Sith are. It would make more sense if we had a canon example of the Starkiller, Savage, Ventress types successfully killing the one who's higher on the ladder and surviving to move up in rank among the Sith. But instead, the master always trains the student, then discards him and starts over, often failing to confirm the kill and having to battle a vengeful ex-student later. Granted, Sidious did not act without reason, but it's still a wasteful process.
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  11. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    sidious killed his master plagueis though. so an apprentice has risen to master. the point of the films is that sidious was so strong he couldn't be usurped. dooku wanted obi to join him to try and defeat sidious. didn't happen. vader told padme he could kill him. didn't happen. vader later asked luke to join him so they could kill sidious. didn't happen. if any of those things had gone differently sidious would have been in trouble.

    in the sith "only the strongest survive". during the saga this is sidious.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Jun 1, 2014
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  12. Sudooku Jedi Grand Master

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    May 31, 2014
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    Hi jeditraitor,

    Watching the movie, I also was wondering, if the attempts of Dooku or later Vader were a sincere try to get some allies in order to dethrone the Imperator or if it were merely a ruse in order to weaken the Jedi and to lure some more of them to the dark side. On the other side, Dooku revealed to Obi Wan the existence of Sidious - a thing not necessary to say, if not planned so by Sidious in order to present step by step himself and his apprentice to the world as he already announced to Darth Maul just one episode earlier.
    Last edited by Sudooku, Jun 1, 2014
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.


    As to Dooku, he probably was sincere, but it also worked because the Jedi didn't believe Dooku entirely. But it did make them suspicious which set the stage for what happened in ROTS.
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  14. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 16, 2013
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    Not to split hairs but Vader did actually kill him, unless of course I have been dreaming the ending of ROTJ the whole time.

    But anywho. It's a flaw in the Sith certainly but an understandable one. You always want the strongest and most powerful on your side it's only natural. Maul's death certainly wasn't part of the plan, But luckily for Sidious he met Anakin and realized how powerful he was so he started his plan to befriend him especially after hearing all the hype about him. Dooku was really just a stop gap until Anakin was fully trained and ready. Don't forget he needed someone to do all his dirty work for him, It would have been very difficult to lead his double life without getting caught.

    Sidious's plan was pretty much to wipe out the Jedi, rule the galaxy and achieve immortality. He obviously would have been looking for the strongest and most powerful force user to help him achieve it.
  15. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    vader killed him in the last five minutes. before that he was the strongest.
  16. Sudooku Jedi Grand Master

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    Hi, what an inspiring discussion.:)

    Even when having lost some limbs and the ability of normal breathing, Vader still had enough power and wits - learned from his masters and gifts of his very own nature - to be superior in combat-encounters with almost everyone. And if Luke were just another candidate for becoming the next apprentice to Sidious, Darth Vader wouldn't have been able or even willing to gather all his will, his passion, to terminate Sidious finally. He would have just try to terminate this wannabe apprentice, showing his master his excellency and hence consolidating his rank and position. And his master would have approved it.

    But Luke was no ordinary rival - he was his son! Sidious in his hubris really believed, he could deal with Vader/Luke like he did with Dooku/Anakin last time. But if it would had been Dooku's son, whom Sidious would have choosen to terminate Dooku, we would have had a final end in ROTS too, I guess.

    But how can Sidious really think about, calculate with or even appreciate a father-son relationship? He didn't feel the presence of Luke near to their base while Vader clearly felt his son being present, and certainly his daughter too, even if he wasn't aware he had one. While Sidious' only almost-parental experinece was to bring up young Maul to be become his apprentice. And I'm not sure if he ever felt anything like sadness for the loss of a nearstanding person, when he attended the funeral of Qui-Gon in his position as a mere senator of Coruscant.
    Last edited by Sudooku, Jun 1, 2014
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    The Sith managed to survive for centuries, replacing one apprentice with another.

    The Sith may have been flawed, but so were the Jedi. I feel that neither order was perfect, due to their extreme methods of viewing the Force.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jun 1, 2014
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  18. Jesse Booth Jedi Master

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    Jun 8, 2014
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    I know, right? isn't there a middle ground between the two orders, where one can deal with their all emotional problems without being a virginal public servant for their entire lives? I personally always wanted to see a dark-side user that was little more than a greedy mercenary. Someone who never claimed to be a member of the sith, just a neutral party only interested in credits. Perhaps working with and against the Jedi, depending on what direction the money was flowing? Just an idea for a character, I guess.

    Back to the topic. The two apprentice model was devised by Revan specifically for the apprentice to kill off the master once he became old and weak. Sidious was afraid of training an apprentice capable of inheriting the full power of the Dark Side. What a coward.

    Or maybe he was just a terrible teacher, and all his apprentices were incompetent losers as a result. Who knows? Not me, that's for sure.
    Last edited by Jesse Booth, Jun 10, 2014
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  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Ventress was heading that way in TCW when she embraced the bounty hunter lifestyle.
  20. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    yes they were serious about destroying the emperor/sidious but they couldn't do it themselves. this is why the sith are always recruiting new apprentices that are more powerful, to try to rise/stay on top.
  21. Jesse Booth Jedi Master

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    Jun 8, 2014
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    I enjoyed that in the series. I really did. Ventress was one of my favorite characters by the time they cancelled TCW. I was incredibly disappointed when they did that, and with all the unanswered questions they left.
    Last edited by Jesse Booth, Jun 11, 2014
  22. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    they could always use ventress again, possibly in her own book/comic or rebels.
  23. Jesse Booth Jedi Master

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    Sadly, she died in a comic. At least that's what Wikipedia said. I really liked her as a character, and was disappointed to hear she was dead.
  24. thejeditraitor Chosen One

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    nope...

    Asajj Ventress - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

    Despite appearances to the contrary, Ventress did not die, instead placing herself in a Sith trance on Boz Pity using herSith healing techniques to heal the wounds she suffered. She was loaded aboard the med runnerBright Flight, and, while on board, emerged from her trance and ordered the pilots to alter their course; to take her as far away as possible from the war, Dooku, and the Jedi. The pilots complied. [24]
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Jun 11, 2014
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  25. Jesse Booth Jedi Master

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    Jun 8, 2014
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