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Lit Isn't Malak a failure as Sith?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Slowpokeking, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    He didn't become more powerful than his master and got killed by him.
     
  2. WIERD_GREEN_MAN

    WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 16, 2010
    But he did accomplish things.
     
  3. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    He failed to surpass his master, that's what great Sith should succeed.
     
  4. WIERD_GREEN_MAN

    WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 16, 2010
    Theoretically and narrowly. Some Sith are meant just to serve. And many are okay with that.
    If you are coming from a purist, Banite perspective, then I can see what you mean. But I still think Malak got stuff done, which was good for him.
    Also, he did surpass his master. Only his master came back. This is why you should always make sure somebody is dead.
     
  5. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Well, to this point you could argue that all Sith have failed. Even Palpatine's success was only temporary.
     
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  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Yeah, the idea of not surpassing his master is kind of an odd place to draw the line. Any Sith who doesn't:

    A. Destroy the Jedi
    B. Rule the Galaxy
    C. Stay Immortal

    Is a failure.

    It's kind of their thing to have unrealistic goals. Besides, since Revan was redeemed, the Old Dark Lord was destroyed anyway.
     
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  7. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Malak destroyed a planet. That has to be every Sith's wet dream.

    Oh wait, he didn't fully destroy it. Failure.
     
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  8. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Palpatine killed his master and surpassed his master in many ways.
     
  9. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Naga Sadow killed Simus
    Exar Kun killed both his Jedi and Sith master.
    Nihilus and Sion defeated and exiled Darth Traya.
    Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath both killed their master.
    Bane killed some of his masters.
    Then there is Rule of Two
     
  10. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Nov 19, 2009
    One can't argue from a Baneite perspective on Malak. He comes from a different Sith Order, with different goals. His whole thing with killing Revan was just being power-hungry, not any obligation to the 'Greater Sith Goals'.

    EDIT: As for him being a failure in other ways...Malak killed an absurd amount of Jedi. And at the end of KOTOR he could hold Jedi Knights in a Force grip while talking to Revan. He's hardly weak, just not the strongest by any means either.
     
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  11. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Palpatine's definitely the greatest Sith success story.

    I suppose you could say all the Bannite Sith who were able to kill their masters are successful in the sense that they continue the line, and eventually, in some small way, contribute to the success of the Sith who finally does destroy the Jedi. But in the grand scheme of things, I think the only three Sith you could really argue succeeded in any meaningful way would be Sidious, Vitiate and Krayt. A few others had noteworthy achievements, like Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and so on, but I don't know if I'd necessarily say they succeeded.

    Very true. Malak does pre-date the whole Bannite obsession with killing your master. I'd still say that Malak ultimately "failed", though.
     
  12. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I feel weird that Bane's Rule of Two concept partly came from Revan and Malak.

    Even before this Sith still loves to kill their master so they could prove they are more powerful, become the true master. Naga Sadow and Exar Kun are before him and they all do so, especially Kun.
     
  13. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Nov 19, 2009
    Oh I'm not going to argue that Malak didn't fail. Just that he didn't fail in the Baneite 'MUST KILL MASTER!!!' sense :p

    Since his whole thing with betraying Revan had nothing to do with advancing the Sith, just himself.
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Counterpoint:

    1. Simus wasn't Sadow's master.
    2. Correct but it was Ragnos who crowned Kun.
    3. Traya lead the Exile to beat both.
    4. Darth Imperius kept his master as a pet in Khem Val.
    5. Bane was self-taught.
     
  15. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Actually the goal to kill their master is long before Bane's era, even if they don't kill their master directly, they have to become more powerful than their master. But Malak also failed to surpass his master in all the ways, that's a big failure.
     
  16. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    1. He was.
    2. Kun indeed became more powerful than Nadd and his Jedi master.
    3. She could not defeat them herself and she also got beaten by the Exile.
    4. Light Side is not canon for imperial side. After you finish your class quest there is a companion quest to trap Zash or Khem Vael forever in the Rakata Mind Trap. And he/she did surpass Zash for sure.
    5. He was taught by many members of the brotherhood.
     
  17. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    When exactly did surpassing one's master become the Ultimate goal for a Sith?

    Technically, any Sith who didn't achieve the end goal is a failure. Technically. However, that's only when looking at the grand scheme and not acknowledging individual accomplishments.
     
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  18. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    Poor Malak, he gets such a bad rap. I'm rather fond of him.
     
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  19. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    I'll go a step farther and say that his final speech is one of the most memorable in gaming.
     
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  20. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    It's necessary to become a great Sith Lord, if you don't that means you are not even the greatest Force user in this era.

    Most of other great Sith Lords did it, why couldn't he?
     
  21. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Because it's Revan.
     
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  22. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    Not really, because it's again not the end goal, and most Sith weren't the greatest Force users in their respective era. I'd say in general the idea of a "great" Sith Lord can be said to encompass many things.

    Vitiate, Marka Ragnos, Darth Vader, Darth Krayt, Darth Tyranus, Ajunta Pall, Naga Sadow, Karness Muur, Darth Revan, Darth Traya, Belia Darzu, Darth Andeddu, etc. For every Sith that killed their master there's one that didn't and all these Sith were strong in their own right.

    And the idea of killing a master doesn't really mean anything in terms of a Sith being strong. Accomplishments do. Darth Malgus killed his master when he was wounded. Darth Sidious killed his while he slept. Darth Caedus didn't kill Lumiya. Exar Kun killed a spirit. Freedon Nadd a decrepit old man. Sadow a head in a jar. These Sith did nothing to prove their strength by killing their masters, yet all were exceedingly powerful
     
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  23. Zer0

    Zer0 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 3, 2012
    He wasn't a complete failure, he did as much as time allowed.
     
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  24. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Sadow, the Sith Emperor, Exar Kun, Palpatine and a few others are the most powerful in a certain era, the others are the greatest among the Dark Side users.

    Vitiate does not have a master, we don't know about Ragnos but he mostly became more powerful than his master, same with many others. Of course Darth Vader is a failure as Sith, he still kept light in his heart to prevent him become more powerful. Dooku is the same, he's powerful and smart, but also a failure as a Sith and Palpatine never intended to make him the long term apprentice, only a tool to let Vader kill.

    Sure they didn't kill their master with power, but most of them all became more powerful than their master, that's what I'm talking about.

    The important thing is to surpass the master by becoming more powerful, killing them is a method to show it, even if they were not that powerful when they did it they mostly outsmarted their master. But Malak? Revan is more powerful and smarter than him, directly kicked his ass in the end.
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    There is no canon for the two sides, thankfully.

    Yet.