Isn't the duel at the end of Return of the Jedi sorta ironic? Or am I misinterpreting something?

Ok, I've been thinking about this on and off all day, and can't quite figure something out.

I have a few questions...:

Ok, if Luke kills the Emperor, he turns to the dark side, because it would be out of hate. But how would killing Vader not be of the dark side? It seems that no matter what Luke was going to give in to hate, so how would that be any different?

How is Vader's killing the Emperor of the light side? Is it because he was saving Luke? Or was he killing him because he hated Palpatine for what he had done? If so, wouldn't that be of the dark side, and he would not be fully redeemed?

How would Luke's killing Vader completely bring balance and "fulfil his destiny"? The Emperor would still probably be alive -- if he only killed Vader -- and therefore there would be no balance.

 

Ok, if Luke kills the Emperor, he turns to the dark side, because it would be out of hate. But how would killing Vader not be of the dark side? It seems that no matter what Luke was going to give in to hate, so how would that be any different?

I don't think Luke was meant to kill either one. I think Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Vader would turn if Luke confronted him.

How is Vader's killing the Emperor of the light side? Is it because he was saving Luke? Or was he killing him because he hated Palpatine for what he had done? If so, wouldn't that be of the dark side, and he would not be fully redeemed?

Vader sacrificed himself for his son. That's a lightside move and bringing down Palpatine had to be done.

How would Luke's killing Vader completely bring balance and "fulfil his destiny"? The Emperor would still probably be alive -- if he only killed Vader -- and therefore there would be no balance.

Once again, Luke, wasn't meant to kill either one. He was merely a catalyst to convert Anakin back to the light side. Then it was up to Anakin to take down Palpatine, while sacrificing his own life.

 

Luke fulfilling his destiny did not entail him killing Vader.
The line was "you must confront Vader", not "you must kill Vader" or "you must beat Vader senseless and give him a Wet Willy".
By confronting his fears of both his father AND himself, by throwing down his lightsaber at that crucial moment, THAT is fulfilling his destiny.

Vader's killing Palpatine is not entirely "good" of course, because he is angry and hateful toward the Emperor, but then he was probably always angry and hateful toward the Emperor ("Luke, you can destroy the Emperor, we can rule the world together, etc. etc.")... BUT because he is doing something to help someone else, because he is learning to love his son, he gets his second chance at making something of himself.

EDIT: Yes, I must side with Salty and add that the fact that Vader's act is one of sacrifice, which makes it all the more significantly "light side".



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I'm still curious why Luke would take a swipe at Palpatine. The only conclusion I can come up with is that Luke wanted to get the duel started so he could start trying to bring Vader back to the good side. If Vader would've really wanted Palpatine dead, he would've let Luke strike down Palpatine. I think Vader started the turn at the moment he defended Palpatine. Then he provoked Luke to the point where Luke's hatred took over and Luke learned the true nature of the dark side. The look on Luke's face when he looks at his hand after striking down Vader is a telling point in the movie. In a sense Vader prevented Luke from turning to the dark side. I think that's where the final transformation in Vader took place and Luke's destiny was fulfilled. There was never a doubt in my mind that Vader would save Luke from Palpatine during the electrocution.

 

Ok, I think it makes a little bit more sense now. Thanks.


Oh, and Luke swung at Palpatine because Palpatine was ticking him off and mocking him.

 

Exactly, so Vader kept Luke from striking down Palpatine in hatred. That sounds like a light side move to me.

 

" I don't think Luke was meant to kill either one. I think Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Vader would turn if Luke confronted him. "

Actually, Luke expected to die with Vader and Palpatine. "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

Also, Obi-wan gave every indication that he wanted Luke to kill Vader.


" Vader sacrificed himself for his son. That's a lightside move and bringing down Palpatine had to be done."

Agreed.

" Exactly, so Vader kept Luke from striking down Palpatine in hatred. That sounds like a light side move to me."

Wan't there a great thread about re-interpreting the ROTJ duel on the assumption that Vader was trying to help Luke? He prevented Luke from hitting Palpatine to prevent him from falling to the Dark Side, etc.

(BTW, nice icon, Salty )

 

I'm still curious why Luke would take a swipe at Palpatine.

Simple, kill the Emporer, save the Rebellion. At that point in the movie, the Emporer's taunts were getting to Luke.

 

Thanks about the icon.



I'm not sure if Obi-Wan really wanted Vader dead. I know they had their differences but I can't imagine Obi-Wan completely severing the bond he had with Vader. I look at it more like Obi-Wan was using that tone and those words to keep Luke focused on the objective. Luke always felt there was good in Vader, but to keep Luke from letting his emotions get the best of him, Obi-Wan always threw out negative things about Vader.

EDIT: I don't think it's that simple. Vader knew Luke was on a dangerous path, so he prevented Luke from taking down Palpatine. Sure, Vader may have had a lot of loyalty towards Palpatine, but based on what Vader said in ESB, there was no reason for Vader to stop Luke unles he didn't want Luke to fall to the dark side.

 

"I can't imagine Obi-Wan completely severing the bond he had with Vader."

Ben (ANH) - "He betrayed and murdered your father."
Ben (ESB) - "He's more machine than man now. Twisted and evil."

"Obi-Wan was using that tone and those words to keep Luke focused on the objective."

Luke (ROTJ)- "I can't kill my own father."
Ben - "Then the Emperor has already won."

Sorry. Gotta disagree with you on those points.

 

Your first set of quotes wets Luke's appetite for knowledge of the past. The second set of quotes lay a guilt trip on Luke so he'll help achieve the objective of turning Anakin back to the good side.

 

Hmmm... Salty, I've gotta disagree with you. I think both Yoda AND Obi-Wan had pretty much given up on Anakin.


"If once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny" - Yoda, RotJ.


Obi-Wan still cared about Anakin, but I think he and Yoda both began to think of Luke as the Chosen One. That it was HIS destiny to defeat the dark side, rather than Anakin's.

 

That's cool, but I still don't think they gave up completely on Anakin. Maybe Episode III will shed some more light on what they might be thinking during the OT. Until then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Telling Luke that the Emperor will win if Luke didn't kill Vader does NOT sound like Obi-wan wanted Luke to bring Vader back to the good side.

Obi-wan knows that Vader revealed his identity to Luke so that should tell him that there's a possiblity that Vader still has some good left in him so instead of ignoring Luke's belief that Vader can turn back to the good side and continue on leaving cryptic messages that suggest that Vader must die, Obi-wan should be supporting Luke and to tell him to bring Anakin back to the Light Side.

 

That may be true, but I just don't believe Luke was meant to kill anybody unless as a last resort. I think Obi-Wan was preparing Luke for the possibility of having to kill Vader if Luke's insight turned out to be wrong. Which it didn't.

 

"Your first set of quotes wets Luke's appetite for knowledge of the past."

"He betrayed and murdered your father."
Sounds more like it's wetting Luke's appetite for revenge (hence the original name of Revenge of the Jedi.)

"He's more machine than man now. Twisted and evil."
Sounds more Ben is dehumanizing Vader, thus making it easier for Luke to kill him without remorse.

Your argument would have made more sense if Ben told Luke the truth at the very beginning. "You must help me bring your father back to the Dark Side." Ben speaks highly of "Anakin" to inspire Luke, and speaks maliciously of "Vader" to remind Luke of what's been taken from him ("You're the man who shot my pa!"). Why else would Ben refer to Anakin and Vader as two different people, unless Ben wanted Luke to believe that they were, in fact, two different people?

"lay a guilt trip on Luke so he'll help achieve the objective of turning Anakin back to the good side."
"I can't kill my own father."
That's quite an inference. I see Ben gently rebuking Luke for not coming to the "obvious" conclusion that Vader must be killed for the greater good., regardless of his parentage.

When Luke speaks of the "good" he senses in Vader, Ben brushes it off as nonsense. Never does he say "That's good. We must encourage those feelings in Vader!"

[EDIT]
Saw something in another thread that gave me an idea.

Obi-wan obviously knew that he could "become one with the Force", though he never tells Luke about this when he says "Your destiny lies upon a different path from mine."

Why? Because Ben wants Luke to see Vader strike him down, to further build this "image" of an evil person. Watch Ben's face when he sees Luke, and then looks sneeringly at Vader. He deliberately waits until Luke has a clear view of the battle, then his lightsaber goes up, and Vader makes the killing blow.

First Vader "kills" Luke's father (according to Ben), then he kills Luke's new friend (and only real link to his father.) Luke screams at Vader in anger, as he now has one more reason to go after Vader. At no point does Ben come back and say "Hey! Don't worry about it. Vader did me a favor. Now I'm even more powerful than he could possibly imagine!"

Furthermore, he never even mentions Luke to Vader, either during the battle or afterwards. If Luke is supposed to redeem Anakin, why continue keeping Luke's identity a secret?

I believe that Ben gave up on Anakin being the Chosen One, and believed that Luke was the Chosen One instead. It's the fact that everyone believed that Luke was the Chosen One that created the circumstances for 1) Anakin to be redeemed by Luke's actions and 2) be in a position to take out Palpatine.

Ben and Yoda knew that Palpatine had to be destroyed. They simply had no idea of how.

 

It appears I'm in the minority here. Oh well...can't win them all.

 

Sorry, dude. Not trying to knock you or anything. I'll stop now.

 

Nah, don't sweat it. I was looking at Anakin as the Chosen One regardless of what happened between TPM and ROTJ. I think, like everyone else in the saga, Luke was there to help Anakin on his journey to ultimately destroy evil.

 

And I'd agree with that %100.

 

Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor not through hate, but by being calm and passive.

 

I still think that Obi Wan and Yoda had faith in Luke: as PTM99 said,they first wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor,but, when Luke said he was feeling that there was still something good in his father,they believed in the possibility of a redemption.

Perhaps they were almost at the point of giving up their hope to return Anakin to the light,but young Skywalker provided a new hope for them: he was the very son of Vader; who else could have understood better Vader's insight? (remember that Padme was dead and Leia still wasn't conscious of the Force)

The led their hopes in hands of Luke.
They trusted in him.

Just one more point: whatever you think, remember that Luke was not a puppet: he was a jedi,he had his own personality: he wasn't just a useful tool in hands of anybody.
Luke had his role as well as Anakin, and he had to fulfill with it.

 

"they believed in the possibility of a redemption."

Kenobi scoffed at Luke. Yoda never said either way.

"he wasn't just a useful tool in hands of anybody. "

Wasn't he? Why else did Yoda and Kenobi hide him away on Tatooine? Why didn't they want him to go to Bespin.

All of our soldiers in Iraq are individuals, but they are also tools in the hands of our President to be used against Hussein. It is possible to be both.

 

Then, all the jedi under the orders of the Jedi Council are tools.Obi-Wan was a tool, and Qui-Gonn Jinn, and Anakin...

What I beg is to consider him as a caracter as capable to take his own decisions as any other.Remember that Yoda and Obi disliked the idea of Luke going to Bespin, but nobody stopped him.

And yes, I know that Yoda never says anything about a possible redemption, but Obi does.Luke and Obi-Wan have a significant conversation in ROTJ, when Luke comes back to Dagobah to see master Yoda.

 

At what point in that conversation does Ben talk of redeeming Anakin?