Israel and Palestine: Abandoning God One Bullet at a Time

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MrEmh, Feb 4, 2002.

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  1. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2

    Israel has ceased acting like a responsible nation and a nation of God and is promoting slaughter of a people who should share their land.

    Palenstine is spurning Israeli efforts at peace and propogates violence and suffering, a people of God itself, yet even the words of the prophet fall on their deaf ears.

    Do not hope there will be a change. Despair that it will not come soon enough.



    The situation and tension in the Middle East has for many years centered on the conflict between Palestine and Israel, two nations that claim certain areas of land as their own.

    What are your views on the land rights?
    Violence: who is worse?
    Is a compromise even an option anymore? Will a peace treaty be little more than a paper shield?

    Your opinions?
  2. Tatooine_Rose Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 2
    The question is: who did God bless? Ishmael or Israel? They both disagree about who the Chosen people are.
  3. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    land rights: both have equal right to the land

    who is worse: both are as bad as each other. israel goes nutso with their firepower, and the palestinians target innocent civilians specifically

    is a compromise an option? only if the orthadox jews give up their idea of a 'greater israel' and stop building on palestinian land. likewise, only if palestinians recognise israels right to exist, and give israel security.
    the extremists on both sides have to be restrained, and authorities on both sides have to lead from the front, that is, stop bullcrapping each other, stop bullcrapping the world, and start leading their people forward.

    a peace treaty that is only a paper shield will inevitably fall apart.

    both sides have to learn to respect each other as human beings. when the respect happens, then peace will follow.
  4. Crimson Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    They need their own sovereign nations. That's the only way bloodshed will ever stop there.

    Both are in the wrong, people seem to lay all the blame on the PLO, labelling them terrorists, for wanting independence. However, I do recall another group of people who were fighting for independence about 225 years ago, they were labelled traitors and terrorist...

    Just give them their own damned little country so they will shut the hell up.
  5. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    easier said than done...the palestinian extremists dont just want their own country, they want israel as well.

    giving each a nation wont work until both sides learn to respect the other.
  6. Obi Wan Bergkamp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1998
    star 3
    Give both sides a final ultimatum. You have a week to sort it out, otherwise all the land gets given to the United Nations who will turn it into a gigantic theme park & holiday complex. All the Isralites will be shipped to one small island in the Pacific, and the Palastinians to another.

    Share or repatriation - which do you want?

    Edited for spelling
  7. DarthDave Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 2
    You are forgetting that Barak offered them 95% of the west bank and part of Jerusalem as their capital. He met virtually all their demands and Arafat said no. Why? He wants to destroy all of Israel and their could be no peace with a man like that.
  8. Tukafo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    Now hang on a second. "Barak offered them this and that". It is not for Barak to offer the Palestinians anything at all. The Palestinians LIVED there all their life!!! Then all of a sudden people appear and take over the land and kick everybody out. And then the Palestinians should be thankful because they get offered something? Imagine some guys came to your house, take it over, kick you out and then offer you to stay in the garden shed. Would you be grateful?
  9. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2
    Arafat is a violent man. But I agree that he has at least some basis to be angry about what has happened to the land he always lived in, even if it isn't his ancestral homeland. The Palestinians had been living in Israel for centuries, and had pretty much rooted themselves in.

    The one point I will give to the Israelites in the land holding is antiquity. The Canaanites are no longer around as a people or an abstract, so if the Palestinians claim heritage to them, who the Israelites conquered, it would be for naught. But anyway, the Israelites had their land for quite some time, through various empires and wars. The crusades essentially booted them out until this century, sending them scattered to the four corners.

    But still, there is enough land in that region that they Sharon's gov't can provide Palestine with land. Arafat has to realize that if he doesn't except one of these offers, he will die having accomplished nothing.
  10. Darth Mulacki Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 1999
    star 5
    I agree with you Tukafu. The Palestines(sp) have lived al there lives but then suddenly the UN says "hey move out, we are going to give this country to a bunch of people that lived here 2000 years ago"

    As far as i see it the one to blame is the entire west. The US and the EU are normally the first to speak up when something is wrong, but not this time. Noboby dares raise a finger against the jews cause of something that happen 57 years ago. I've gotten the feeling that isreali exploit this and IMO they are no better that the nazi during WWII.
    It's time to get over it and forgat WWII and move on and make a stand against the Israeili.

    BUT...the palestiens has to stop with theire bombings of innocent people, and Arafat has to be more swift and hard against those extremist groups like Islamic Jihad
  11. DarthDave Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 2
    The Jews did not just appear. They were there for hundreds of years in commmunities even after they were kicked out a couple of thousand of years ago. Second of all, there were several hundred thousand Jews living in Palestine for over 50 years before Israel. When Israel was declared for these people, all the arab countries declared war on Israel. These Palestinians willingly left their homes for the war.

    Furthermore, one million Arabs live in Israel. Jews are not allowed to live in the West Bank? Israel is only 20 thousand square kilometers while the oil rich arab countries have over 12 million kilometers. You would think they can help them. But they all turned their backs on their fellow Muslims.

    The same thing about kicking people out could be with America and the Indians. Any country is like this. When did this become okay not to complain? 100 years after, 150 years after. Tell me.

    The only way for the Jews to defened themselves is with a homeland. This way Jews do not have to depend on other countries for their good graces to protect them from the holocaust.

    I might add that all the United Nations does these days is condemn Israel. Never condemns Arafat and the terror his Fatah and PA commits. The United States is the only nation that rightfully stands with the only democratic nation in the Middle East. No other nation does this.

    Israel is allowed self defense. You don't allow someone to kill you standing still.If you want the violence too stop, Arafat must stop the war and that is it. Israel won't need to take defensive measures if they stop.
    If Arafat stops the war, peace will return. Not if Israel lays down its arms.
  12. Tukafo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    The only democratic nation in the Middle East? On paper yes. In reality they're a puppet of the US interests in the region.
    BTW, why should you support a nation with guns, helicopters, money in their struggle against another simply because it's a democratic nation? Do non-democratic nations have no right to exist? Should they be wiped out?

    The Palestinians moved because of the war? Yes, they did. And that gives the Israelis the right to take over their country?

    Another point: When Irak took over Kuwait the US government calls it barbarism. When Israel conquered Palestinian territories (and Egyptian and Jordanian in the past) the US stand shoulder to shoulder with them. Why? Because the government changes its opinion based on the US business interests
  13. DarthDave Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 2
    In general, people think democracies are better than dictatorships. Where you can speak freely and not go to Jail or even killed(see Iraq, and the PA, as well as the moderate Egypt) You are implying that the United States democracy is wrong. I think there should be no dictatorships. Just look at Afghanistan and how happy the women and others are. It would give people freedom which most people like. A true democracy would give a chance for peace. Also almost every single war in this since 1900 was between a democratic nation and a totalitarian government. I never said they should be wiped out. I wonder how you can possibly think that. They should put a democratic system in the country instead. But as long as the totalitarian government acts civilized there is no need to change it. But when you are the Taliban, or Iraq and you attack people for no reason whom all theywant is thei own choices and freedom, then you must remove the dictatorship.

    Israel allowed the Arabs to still live in the West Bank. There are a million arabs living in Israel besides that. The little land Israel takes is a buffer from the Arabbs from being too close to Tel Aviv where it would be much easier to attack Israel. To protect yourself from other attacks which otehrwise would be inevitable, yes u can take land, especially when you are attacked first.

    It is one thing for the Palestians to take up arms and fight the Israeli army and take up their struggle. It is another matter for them to attack innocent civilians walking down a street. Arafat has been directly linked to this. President Bush has condemned Arafat himself for the boat with weapons which money used for that was instead of feeding the Palestians. Tens of millions of dollars.

    Your Iraq point is simply ridiculous. There is no need to answer that.
  14. DarthDave Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 2
    The bottom line is we have copmletely different viewpoints and though this is the proper forum for this topic there is no need to argue. Nothing will be done. I am not going to continue the argument. Except that Natalie Portman is Jewish. :)
  15. lavjoricso Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    The atguement is all wrong in the East.The main problem being that we have talk of 'should the Palastinians be given land',instead of 'should israel give back the occupied land'.
    I do believe that the Jews should have been given some sort of home land after the second world war but not if it causes pain to other people who have lived there for a long long time.

    Peace will never happen not while America has it's puppet state in the East and while a criminal is incharge of israel.
    The only chance we had of peace in the East was when Arafat and Rabin won the peace prize for TALKING and WORKING together.

    but sadly Rabin was murdered by one of his own . SIGH

    As for bringing Natalie Portman up,i don't see the point,but damn i love that girl [face_blush] !!!
  16. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    To be totally & unrealistically jingoistic about the Israel/Palestine situation, the US should demand a summit meeting between the two factions. If either or both factions fail to attend or back out of the meeting before a treaty is established and enforced, the penalty for noncompliance is that the US declares war on them.

    Like I said, effective but completely unrealistic. :D
  17. TripleB Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    maybe I am a bit biased, since my step dad and step brother are jewish and live now in Israel...but.....

    There is a lot of stuff, done by the Palestinians, that is never reported. Much, much MUCH more then the Israeli's. For example, my stepdad sent me a local story, where Jordan revealed they had arrested and prevented at least 18 attempts by the Iranians to infiltrate Iranian Republic Army troops, to fire rockets into Israel. Not a peep of it was reported by US news agencies.
  18. MrEmh Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 2
    It's a messed up region. Of course we do not get the whole story. There are certainly atrocities covered up on both sides to appear more media friendly, but Sharon and Arafat are never going to win humanitarian of the year, or any such thing. They are propogating a war for vindictive, petty reasons. They are pushing this thing forward and they aren't just asking for or giving no quarter, they are forcibly taking it from each other, pushing each side into an uncomfortable, reactionary stance.

    It's all messed up.
  19. legacyAccount Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2012
    There is a lot of stuff, done by the Palestinians, that is never reported. Much, much MUCH more then the Israeli's.

    if your stepfather is reading israeli newspapers, then they are probably slanted towards the israelis and will give more anti-palestinian propaganda. i'm sure that a palestinian reading a palestinian newspaper would have a very different slant.
  20. Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Now hang on a second. "Barak offered them this and that". It is not for Barak to offer the Palestinians anything at all. The Palestinians LIVED there all their life!!! Then all of a sudden people appear and take over the land and kick everybody out. And then the Palestinians should be thankful because they get offered something? Imagine some guys came to your house, take it over, kick you out and then offer you to stay in the garden shed. Would you be grateful?

    So Israel should do what? Learn to breath in water? Do they have a right to exist? Do they have a right to have a nation of their own? Do you prefer they be oppressed in largely Christian dominated society? A small minority to where if another maniac rises to power the Jews could be exposed to another holocaust.

    Israel has a right to a small peice of land, and in 1947 the UN gave them a small piece of land, Palestine was several times larger, then all the Arabian nations decided to gang up on Israel called for a Jihad and proceed to get the floor mopped with them. (that always seems to happen when they call for a Jihad).

    I agree with you Tukafu. The Palestines(sp) have lived al there lives but then suddenly the UN says "hey move out, we are going to give this country to a bunch of people that lived here 2000 years ago"

    As far as i see it the one to blame is the entire west. The US and the EU are normally the first to speak up when something is wrong, but not this time. Noboby dares raise a finger against the jews cause of something that happen 57 years ago. I've gotten the feeling that isreali exploit this and IMO they are no better that the nazi during WWII.
    It's time to get over it and forgat WWII and move on and make a stand against the Israeili.


    ohhhhhhhhh, ok one of the greatest astrocities commited in the history of man kind should suddenly be forgotten, even by the survivors. Its ok it didnt happen, nope lets not learn from history, lets move forward making the same mistakes as our ancestors.

    American's and British dont forget our heroes of WWII neither do the Russians. We honor them, we honor their bravery, courage and by God Im thankful they saved the world from the scourge of evil.

    And why should the Jews forget the holocaust and the Palestinians shouldnt forget that Israel once wasnt a state?

    Israel shouldnt forget and Palestine should learn to live w/it.

    BTW, why should you support a nation with guns, helicopters, money in their struggle against another simply because it's a democratic nation? Do non-democratic nations have no right to exist? Should they be wiped out?

    After the First World War only a few types of government emerged, monarchy was still around but dying, communisim, facisim and nazisim were rising and so was democracies, in the middle east we see a form of tyranny from most of the nations, if you believe different than us you dont have a right to be here. The US has made it clear since 1776 we do not tolerate tyrants. And because we support a democratic nation doesnt mean were trying to overthrow other nations, its like picking friends, are you wrong for having a friend you have alot in common with? If someone picks on your friend are you not going to stand by him?

    The Palestinians moved because of the war? Yes, they did. And that gives the Israelis the right to take over their country?

    Youre very anti Israel arent you? Do you think they should have been wiped off the face of the earth in the 30s and 40s? It sure seems that way to me? Where does this hate come from I wonder?

    Another point: When Irak took over Kuwait the US government calls it barbarism. When Israel conquered Palestinian territories (and Egyptian and Jordanian in the past) the US stand shoulder to shoulder with them. Why? Because the government changes its opinion based on the US business interests

    Very anti American too, #1 its Iraq, not Irak, #2 were comparing apples to oranges. In 1948 it was the Arabian nations including Palestine that attacked Israel, and as I mentioned befo
  21. son_of_the_tear Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    I am Jewish and resides there once.

    Point is, both sides commit viles acts.

    We have the Palestinian terrorists and extremists.

    That is one side. They participate in suicide bombings and attack on civillians, and Arafat not doing anything againts the terrorists.

    Then we have Sharon, a war criminal, the trigger happy Isreali Army and of course, much smaller than the PLO, but the righ wing Isreali terrorists.

    That is the other side. We have soldiers using guns against stone throwers. We have Isrealy soldiers using guns on kids... and sorry, never does one use a gun on children, you do not defend yourself on a kid throwing a rock with a GUN. No. Then we have cases of Isreali police and millitary turning homes of civillians into rubbish and casualties and of course, they use rockets for their assasination attempts, so many they hit the area where the target is, thus killing any civillians around or family or friend of the target who is not under target.

    So both sides are just as bad and both should be flung into space.

    The land belongs to btoh equally AND it did not belong EVER originally to the Jews or Palestinians. The land was taken from each other through time and it belonged the Caananites to begin with.

    So we have the Palestinians saying it belongs to them by divine right and then we have the Jews saying the same thing.

    And besides the Isrealis and Palestinians, the land belongs as much to the Christians as them.

    The solution. Screw them all. Make Israel an international state. All of the 3 major religions have a claim to it.

    And then we send Sharon and Arafat into space.
  22. Tukafo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    I don't really want to continue this discussion but let me just make one point clear: I do not hate Israel, as a matter of fact I love Israel, I went there 4 times and made wonderful friends. This is not the issue here. The issue is the blatant violation of human rights committed by many Israeli governments over the years. Yes, the UN gave them a piece of land. But they didn't say "Go out and conquer the rest of the middle east too, it's all yours, you can take Gaza and the Sinai peninsular which is yours anyway because Moses walked there 27000 years ago and while you're at it get Jordania too but please make sure you kick everybody out of their homelands so that your settlers can take over their houses"

    I can't believe you cannot see this blatant injustice committed here!!!

    And btw, I'm not Anti-US, why should I be anti-US? I just point out that American business interests are more important than human rights questions or so it seems
  23. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    ummm, you know that israel was happy with what they were initially given, however the rest of the middle east attacked them?

    in 1967 israel won a lot of land from the nearby countries. they since gave back much of the land to egypt and jordan in exchange for peace.

    for a period of time, israel occupied part of lebanon as a buffer zone against hezbollah attacks. they left the buffer zone a couple of years ago.

    they never tried to take over the middle east.

    they have on-again-off-again negotiations with syria to give back land, in exchange for peace. likewise with the palestinians.

    i am not quite sure where you get your idea that israel is trying to take over the middle east.

    the settlers are moving into the west bank and gaza strip, but that expansion is doomed to failure. it wont last.

    but that still isnt quite what you are saying.

    i think you are going a little over the top. at best you are exaggerating, at worst you are ignorant of the history of israel.
  24. Tukafo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    OK, I actually didn't want to imply that their plan was to take over the middle east. The quote in my last post was meant in a cynical, satirical, ironic way not as a statement of facts. I knwo they gave back Sinai. But why did they take it in the first place? Who gave them the right? Only international pressure and the Camp David agreement made sure they gave it back. You said they took parts of Syria as a protection. Who gave them the right to do that? Should the US conquer Mexico as a protection against Colombia?

    I think this is such a clear cut case of who's to take the blame that it's really funny we have to discuss this
  25. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    IIRC, within 48 hours of Israel being made into a state, they fell under attack by several Arab nations. Seven days later, Israel had nearly doubled its size.

    So much for that theory about rampant conquest...
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