Israel and Palestine: Abandoning God One Bullet at a Time

Ok, so who prefers my idea of flinging them BOTH into space?




Anyway, Sharon is breaking quite a few international laws, read today in the Philadelphia "METRO" paper. Shoot first and ask questions later it seems. Due to the fact that it is carrying out assasination attempts through rockets on SUSPECTS without evidence. It makes matters worse when those hits cause casualties amongst bystanders and innocents. But it is just as bad that it is being carried out on SUSPECTS or people they belive MIGHT plan an attack. without any hard evidence.

Have they ever heard of detainment instead of suing missles fired form a helicopter or tank?

 

tukafo, when israel had been attacked, they fought back and took over land. they took the golan heights, a place from where syria would attack israel. they took the west bank and gaza strip, places from where israel was attacked.

the places israel took over were places they were attacked from. since those times, israel has been willing to give the land back, in exchange for peace. egypt has gotten land back. jordan has gotten land back.

you ask who gave them the right to take the land? the land that they took from these countries was taken for security. other countries were attacking from these places, so israel took them, and have been willing to give them back, so long as the other country is willing to make peace.

israel has no right whatsoever to keep these lands. and so far, they have given lands back in exchange for peace.
those lands that have not been given back, israel will only keep until they have peace with the rightful owners.


and Tear, the problem with detainment, is how to take the suspects into custody? these guys wouldnt be willing to go without a fight. and so far as any country is concerned, bombing a house and killing a couple of innocent civilians along with the suspect is still preferable to going in with a few troops to take custody, when your troops can easily be shot at. its not right, but thats the way it is.

 

As I said before in my thread that got locked:
I think one solution to this problem would be for the Palestinians to adopt a non-violent protest movement, much like blacks did in the U.S. in the 60's and the Indians did against the British with Mohandas Gandhi.

I know this solution is not attractive but solutions to violence rarely are. What we do know is that the violence isn't helping. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

 

not to be offensive to anyone who does not share this religious belief:
maybe i'ts like the Bible/Torah/Hebrew Testament story where the jews had to wait 40 years to go into their homeland. but lifespans have increased, so maybe they have only to wait 70-or-so years before peace can be made. [face_hopeful]
Has anyone seen the PBS special "Promises"? I'ts cute. there are Israeli and Palistinian kids talking about the situation, and how much they hate each other. then they meet, and have a great time. Who knows? maybe peace between the 2 nations will be built on that friendship.

 

Have you heard about the Saudi peace intitiative?

It's the first move made by someone other than the US towards peace, and although I don't have much hope for this plan to work, it does give me faith for the future.

The Crown Prince Abdullah, who brought forth the proposal, said that the members of the Arab League of Nations would recognize Israel's right to exist and stop aggression towards the state if Israel gave back the illegally occupied territories (which includes part of East Jerusalem) and head back to the Green Line.

Of course, this would require the US's aid, monetary, physical, and moral. I'm thinking extensive aid packages, and I highly doubt the Arab nations would sign unless the US did something to alleviate the plight of the Iraqis.

Unfortunately, those Palestinians who have been living as refugees for the last 30+ years or so would not receive the right of return, so the state founded for the Palestinians would not be able to be used by the Palestinians.

Still, it's got potential, wouldn't you think?

 

It sounds good, but I really think it has some problem areas:
* Perhaps moderate Arab nations will accept Israel. Hardline countries will not. Gadaffi has already stated that he wont. I doubt Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, or Iran will.
*What will be the status of the religious sites? Both nations will want control of their respective holy sites. This could be a stumbling block.
*This does nothing to stop terrorist groups such as Hamas and the like who are committed to destroying Israel. I dont see them obeying the peace deals.
*The right of return for refugees is definitely an issue. I think perhaps there should be a compromise, allowing some back, in exchange for the holy site concessions. However, Israel wouldnt, or couldnt, accept all refugees back. Of course, whichever ones arent alowed back should be compensated.

Its good to see a peace initiative from an Arab country, most definitely. Unfortunately, I dont hold much faith in it really working.

 

The only way I know to solve any issues here is to give Palestine the West Bank and Gaza Strip and yes even East Jerusalem.

Set up a UN bufferzone about a take about a mile of each nations territory at the west bank, and half a mile of each nations territory at the Gaza strip and have it patrolled constantly by the UN, a combination of nations including the US and another Muslim country that will be fair, Turkey is probably the best choice, probably even Kuwait wouldn't play the poor Palestine card too.

Relocate any Jews from Palestine and Muslims from Israel (those that want to go) and set up strict check points at all roads accessing the other country. I know it sounds very tyrannical or what not but it is probably the only way.

When and if Palestine becomes a state, then yes they should be allowed to have an army, coast guard (for the Gaza Strip) and an Air Defense force, made of short range fighters, all three forces are rather limited until they can prove they can live in peace.

 

Thats a good post Jedi_Xen.Lets hope we can get something like that in the near future !!!

 

This is how I see it:

ISRAEL: Hey, Palestine, how's it goi..

*Palestine tackles Israel. They wrestle*

*Israel pins Palestine*

PALESTINE: Aahk! No fair!

ISRAEL: Sorry, but you did tackle me. But hey, if you promise not to try and kill me again, I'll let you up and we'll call it even. Whaddaya say?

PALESTINE: Uhhh... No.

 

Thats why you need a UN buffer zone, if they cant live in peace on their own, then the UN will make them. The UN has the power to force a peace, and severly punish those who do acts of terror (and they are on both sides, just because Palestine starts the trouble doesnt mean Israel has the right to kill innocent civilians, two wrongs never make a right), and as I said have the US and at least one muslim country involved (Turkey would be my best choice, they want peace there themselves, and dont care about religion as radicals do, theyd be friendly with anyone friendly to them) a US and Turkish buffer zone would go a long way towards peace.

 

"Have you heard about the Saudi peace intitiative?

It's the first move made by someone other than the US towards peace"


aar....NO. The first move by someone other than the US? Have you not heard of the countless peace initiatives over the years by French, British, German, even Irish delegations? Several of them achieved truce between the parties over the years (only then to be broken again later). Do not think the US is doing it all. In fact since Bush is in the White House NOTHING (zero, nichts, niente) has been attempted by the administration (other then sending weapons and missiles to the Israelis and condemning Arafat, both things are SUREFIRE ways of achieving peace in the region). In the meantime leaders from many countries around the world were in the region meeting with Sharon and Arafat trying to make progress.

Of course little of this makes the news in the States. When Bush said he could envision a Palestine state it was big news although other world leaders came to that conclusion decades ago

 

considering that the violence is now totally escalated since the Israelis have now fully occupied Ramallah (in practice they occupied the capital of a different state).

How can we get out of this? Some lunatics kill Israeli citizens and Sharon thinks the only way to reply is by killing four times as many Palestinians in return. Does he really think peace can be achieved that way?

 

They're both fools, making their people hate each other, there will never be peace as long as they remain in power. But, if you think about it, it's all America's fault.
What right does America or the UN have to take a country that isn't event theres, and give it to someone else?? If America really wanted to help (which the politicians didn't, they just wanted a country in the east for their own agendas) then why not give the jews a state in America. There used to be states where mostly one kind of people lived. Why couldn't they have given the jews a state? Better yet. Why can't they build an artificial island, and call it Jew Island, and have them live there. America should never have given a country that isn't there own to the jews, or anyone else.

 

They're both fools, making their people hate each other, there will never be peace as long as they remain in power. But, if you think about it, it's all America's fault.
What right does America or the UN have to take a country that isn't event theres, and give it to someone else?? If America really wanted to help (which the politicians didn't, they just wanted a country in the east for their own agendas) then why not give the jews a state in America. There used to be states where mostly one kind of people lived. Why couldn't they have given the jews a state? Better yet. Why can't they build an artificial island, and call it Jew Island, and have them live there. America should never have given a country that isn't there own to the jews, or anyone else.

There you go blaming everything on the US again, its America's fault natural disasters are so distructive, its America's fault the dinosaurs went extinct, its America's fault the world is round, its America's fault we haven't discovered alien life. PLEASE, get over your pathetic whiney hatred of America, you sound like Osama Bin Laden.

#1) It wasn't a US led campaign to give that land to the Jews, if memory serves me correctly it was a British led idea, the British were planning on giving them something, the country of Uganda I think it was, was #1 on the list until the Holocaust.

#2) The Jews wanted THAT land, that like Palestine is their homeland, they were taken out of it many years ago to be slaves, which knowing you, was Americas fault too right?

#3) When the land was partitioned between the Jews and the Palestinians, it was divided fairly, evenly, and let the Arabs maintain control of Jerusalem. It was divided by population, the areas with the largest Arab population was under the control of Palestine, and the Jewish populated area under the control of Israel. In 1948 the BRITISH, not the Americans, but rather The BRITISH pulled out of Palestine-Israel, then the Arabs called for a Jihad, and as it seems to go anytime they call a Jihad they got their butts kicked and lost control of what is now Israel.

So if anyone has the right to blame anyone, the modern Arabs have to look to their ancestors and say you damn fools, this is YOUR fault.

Educate yourself first before you make accusations. The United States, has since then propped up Israel, kept the Arabs from overrunning it (which wont happen if they call for a Jihad, that must be Arabic for lets lose this war), that is why the extremists hate the US, for our support to Israel.

 

Well, if what you say is true, then fault lays at Britain's feet. I don't hate America. I just think certain aspects of America are very messed up and wrong. I am nothing like Bin Laden. I haven't ever had a beard.

 

I am nothing like Bin Laden. I haven't ever had a beard.

*LOL* thats clever, I got a jolly laugh out of that. Just loosen your turbin and you'll be alright.

 

Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!!

 

Who keeps Israel going and arms them to the teeth?








AMERICA !!!

 

Ah, yes. I knew they were to blame for something.

 

Eh, if America wants to lose this war they should call it a crusade...oh wait some idiots already did ...


There is no right and wrong there.

Isreal is as guilty as palestine.

Israeli actions create Suicide bombers
Suicide bombers create Israeli actions.

The Western world seem to only condemn teh suicide part, not the bloody actions that follow it.

Don't kid yourself and say that only Israelites want peace and that palestines want only war.

There are radical israelites out there too. *cough*Assasination of their own PM*cough*

 

I believe the land belongs to the Jews. The Jews before have tried to negotiate a peace treaty with them, but the Palestines want Jersuelum (all of it), and they refused to sign a treaty. Now Israel is forced to take action.

I think it's sort of the same situation with the USA and the Talibian. We HAD to take Justice, or we would probally face another similar tragedy.

I'm supporting the Jews, they deserve the land, they are God's chosen people.


PS: LMAO to Jedi_Xen's post about the Bin Laden thing, that was funny. (In a good way you know, not a mockery ).

 

they are God's chosen people = most arrogant load of crap i have ever heard in my live.



All none Jews are screwed !!!

 

I believe the land belongs to the Jews. The Jews before have tried to negotiate a peace treaty with them, but the Palestines want Jersuelum (all of it), and they refused to sign a treaty. Now Israel is forced to take action.

Let's not forget the Isreali PM that got assasinated by an ISREALI when he had almost archieved peace. They are forced to take action? They are setting themselves up for more attacks. The Hamas has already SWORN revenge for all the killings that have recently taken place in the refugee camp. Sharon is taking ADVANTAGE of SEPT 11. He is saying and doing things he could not have gotten away with otherwise.

"We will try to hurt (kill) as many as possible" or something like that.

I think it's sort of the same situation with the USA and the Talibian. We HAD to take Justice, or we would probally face another similar tragedy.

That's aload of BS! Likening Palestine to the taliban is just plain arrogant and stupid. Who is opressing who again? Right the palestians are the oppressed people at the moment.

I'm supporting the Jews, they deserve the land, they are God's chosen people.

Greatest load of arrogant crap ever. God's chosen people? Claims to a fairytale god are not real claims for a land (yes this is probably offensive to many people, so is that statment to me.)

Have you forgotten that the palestians do not believe in the jewish god? Chosen people my ---.

How would YOU like it if someone took over your land in the name of Allah saying that they are allah's chosen people and therefor have right on your property.

!!

 

Actually all Muslims believe in the Israel God! They just believe in him in a different way. The Jews call him Yahwei (sp?) and the Muslims call him Allah. The Muslims too believe in Christ, but only as Gods best prophet or something like that (there is a thread here you might want to read discussing the religions of Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam, they all have alot in common such as the same God).

I think someone here has said it before but how would things be if the Palestinians went about things peacefully (and Im not sure what peacefully is in your book but in mine its not throwing rocks). I dont know about you but I have a hard time sympathizing with them when people who "represent" them are maniacs who strap a bomb onto their body and run into a restraunt or a school bus. Also watching the celebrations on the street during the attacks on 9/11 makes it kinda harder. When the US has to bomb Iraq or Afghanistan you dont see us flood the streets in jubilee do ya? I know they feel oppressed but terrorism only leads to more violence and more oppression. Lets see how world/US opinion swings to their side if they start doing things peacefully, a million man march in Jerusalem or something of the like. If Israel still shoots at them see how fast the world comes down on them like a ton of bricks.

 

in case you didn't realize - world's opinion is already on the Palestinian side, only the US media tell you otherwise because Israel is strategically important to the US. Having allies is all well and good but that doesn't mean you should find excuses for human rights violation.

Since the outbreak of the current violence 18 months ago 1,100 Palestinians were killed while 300 Israelis were killed. So who's causing the terror?

Israel occupies land that doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Palestinians as per UN resolution. Only the veto of their Business Partner and weapons delivery boy United States avoided any sanctions against Israel over the last 30 years.

God's chosen people? Who has the right to call themselves that? Should I run around and say I was chosen by God so give me your house and your car and all your money?

Originally Israel's country? True. But is that a reason to occupy it? Should the Republic of Ireland occupy Northern Ireland because it was originally their country? Should the Navajo and Sioux claim that the US is really THEIR country so all the Americans of European descent should leave?

And since when are the Palestinians represented by suicide bombers? Last time I checked there was no suicide bomber in their government. Does Timothy McVeigh represent the US?