Israel and Palestine: Abandoning God One Bullet at a Time

On the first settlement of Jews in Israël : it was a war of conquest, led by mythical and biblical King David, against a population and numbers much higher than those of the Jews who still won the war, hence the 'David vs Goliath' episode, where Goliath sounds pretty much like a metaphorical evocation of Jews being on the losing side of the war according to maths, but still did manage to conquer the land against all odds.

On the population of Palestine under the British Empire (source written by Elie Barnavi, ambassador of Israël in france, I'll ad the name of the book he wrote it in as soon as I lay my hands on it again but it was roughly akin to 'A history of Israël' when translated into English) :
Back before WW1, the Jew population of Israël was almost nonexistant (a few thousands) as opposed to a strong Arab population of roughly 600,000. Between WW1 and WW2, antisemitism rose throughout Europe, and the solution to escape its possible consequences that was devised by the Jews by then was a solution put forward by Zionists, who said "If Europe is about to expel us, then we'll get back to our biblical land and take Eretz Israël from the usurpers inhabiting it". A constant flow of immigration from Europe brought Jews in Palestine in large numbers, allowing the Jew population to almost equal the Arab population in the 1930's. The Arab were in the stronger position, favored by the British authorities, so the Jews went further hardline and flared series of incidents, including a lot of riots and even terrorist coups made by the main Zionists organisations that would lay the fundations of Israël in 1948, united under Ben Gourion's rule. By then, Ben Gourion was little more in the world's eyes than a notorious terrorist.
The weight of their demographics helped the Arabs still retain the upper hand, but the massive immigration in 1945 with the premises of the making of Israël suddenly brought a number of Jews overwhelming by far that of the original Palestinians who tried to even the odds by inviting other Arabs to immigrate in turn with mild success, given the fact the UN had set its course and already chosen to give Palestine to the Jews to create Israël.

On the 1948 War (source : ibid.) :
The first two months of the war were very bad for the underarmed forces of both the jews and the Arabs, all of whom had only been independant recently. After two months of war, both sides accepted a UN ceasefire that gave them time to muster enough strength to break the statu quo. Both sides found very little help all over the world, but the Jews finally found willing countries to help them : France and Czechoslovakia who sold huge amounts of arms at discount prices to the Jews, giving them a very modern army that allowed the Israëlis to win the war when the ceasefire was broken.

 

Jolly...
"Genghis, altho u claim ur not biased, i can clearly see that u are."

You are obviosuly wrong, like much of the other things you've said.

"ur posts up to this point have been exclusively pro-israel..."

Wrong again.


"...and only now do u start showing any sympathy for the palestinian plight after i accuse you of being biased."

...and wrong yet again. Please read the thread and posts by people as opposed to just sitting here claiming crap aabout people. That is, stick to the issue at hand instead of wasting our time talking crap about people.

"...u conveniently skipped over the last part of my comment, so i'll repeat once more. if one supports what sharon is doing, he or she is definitely pro-israel."

I ignored it, because it is flatly wrong. One can only care about peace, one can care about justice and support what Sharon is doing, without supporting Sharon or Israel.

That's to say Israel clearly needs to stop murderous Palestinians who are slaughtering not only Jews, but Palestinians as well. That job was once the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority. However, instead of working for peace for their people, the Authority instead supported a terrorist network.

One can believe in justice and the right to take police action for the defense of one's people without supporting a country or its leaders.

"...even israeli ppl will tell you that."

So now we're supposed to believe everything the Israeli people tell you?

 

Btw, Genghis, you did not reply to my question I do know what Ramallah's Mayor's job was, what I wanted you to tell me is what means you believe he has at his disposal to do his job, so my question still stands.

 

True. I apologize.

The most important means he has at his disposal is himself. He was assigned or voted to or given by whatever process an important standing and responsibility within the community.

Therefore, one can assume such a person is not without means to do their job. Next, would be those people he hired to help him perform their jobs of running the community.

There was an entire, reather large, administration building. One assumes it was not empty. That is to say, there was indeed prior to the Israeli police action a definite administrative apparatus in place, including a rather large force of armed Palestinian Authority security forces.

The person was not without means to do his job, were he to actually try to do it instead of strengthening a terrorist network.

 

I really don't know what to think about all this. I think part of the problem is to do with perception.

First of all, let me state that both of the main protagonists are *equally* guilty; They are both War Criminals by any definition of the word.

The problem arises from the fact that Arafat is seen as the head of the Palestinian State; unfortunately he has *no control* over many of the terrorist groups in the region. He was picked as the de facto leader of the Palestinians because he happened to be the head of the PLO. Israel has undermined his authority by systematically destroying the PA's infrastructure in Gaza and the West bank, whilst continuing the illegal settlement (under international law) of Palestinian land.

However, the PA is a corrupt authoritarian government, whereas Israel is a modern democratic state - the only one in the region.

Israel has a problem, though: She sees herself as a perpetual victim. This stems from Jewish and Israeli history. However, Israel is now by far the most militarily
powerful nation in the region. Yet most Israelis still see themselves at at the mercy of arab nations which want to totally destroy them. They do not see why many people from outside Israel look at tanks opposing youths with stones and fighter-bombers attacking police stations and see this as terrible oppression.

In their haste to try and remove the terrible scourge of suicide bombings against civilians, Israel is tarring all Palesttinians with the same brush. Torture and violence is the crack cocaine of counterterrorism - it works, but only for a while. The only permanent solutions are dialogue and reconcilliation.

It ain't gonna happen.

Unless a strong international peacekeeping force can be put together and stop the violence on both sides, I feel that the whole region is just going to descend further into the mire.

Israel must realise that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and the Palestinians (and the Arab nations) must recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist. Then both sides will have to hammer out painful concessions on land, but it could be made to work. If it could be done in South Africa and Northern Ireland, there is hope yet.

</rant>

-J

 

"Therefore, one can assume such a person is not without means to do their job. Next, would be those people he hired to help him perform their jobs of running the community.

There was an entire, reather large, administration building. One assumes it was not empty. That is to say, there was indeed prior to the Israeli police action a definite administrative apparatus in place, including a rather large force of armed Palestinian Authority security forces."

-> The problem is, all that had been bombed before the terrorist attacks that triggered Sharon's recent move, and was definitely unuseable in a decent manner. As for the PA's employees, it's been months since all their moves are hampered or forbidden by Tsahal, depending on the periods. And as for the policemen, they've even killed some of their numbers to stop some protests, but when the next terrorist attacks came, it's them who were bombed by Tsahal. A poor way of thanking them for bleeding their own population to defend the rights of Israëlis to exist...

 

Dagsy: Just to be clear I am not a Deacon or Priest in the Catholic Church. Therefore I have no Congregation to teach. Just to be clear, I am not in seminary either. I have been giving thought to such an endevour, my decsion to leave earlier was concerned with clearing my head to better arrive at a decsion (unfourtunetly none has come).

Yes you are correct The Jewish people lived in that region for a very long time before the Romans destroyed the Temple. However, after the Empire collapsed it came under the control of the arabs. who controled under various governments until they were forced out by the Jews. So there historical claim is more recent. However, just solidify such a claim, shortly before the jews came in control of cannan, it was under the rule of the cannanites who are the predeccesors of the arabs. look I am not anti-semetic, i have many jewish relatives. many of those relatives want an israel and a palestinian state, and a few want just a palestinian state. none of them support an entirley Jewish state though. thats just to put some perspective on things.

 

Unless either a Jew or a Palestinian can produce the following:

I hereby deed free and clear the following land equal to about the size of New Jersey between 31 30 N, 34 45 E comprising 20,770 sq km made up of 20,330 sq km of land and 440 sq km of water bordered by 255km with Egypt, 51km with the Gaza Strip, 238 km with Jordan, 79 km with Lebanon, 76km with Syria, and 307km with the West Bank to the XXXXXXX (insert [Palestinian] or [Jewish]) people without conditions.

Signed,
God

Then there's obviously going to be problems. Either we talk about "historical rights" or we don't. IMO, "historical rights" are meaningless - things are what they are. There's no turning the clock back from today.

Without such a deed from the Almighty Himself, The United Nations stepped in and did the next best thing - it partitioned the land up into Palestinian and Jewish states. However, the Palestinians balked. They sided with Arabs to wipe the Jewish state off the face of the globe. They lost.

So, everyone needs to put history behind and deal with the present. Presently, we have a Jewish state which has existed for some 54 years. The Palestinians, the United States, or even the U.N. aren't going to change that fact.

Everyone needs to start dealing with the hand they have right now - today, instead of reminescing about 50 years past.

 

sometimes I feel as though we should make all people leave Israel and it barred from people of any sort.

 

And for your reading pleasure, another article about Jenin from cnn:
www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html

Unless either a Jew or a Palestinian can produce the following:
Note here....

Yeah, it would be wonderful if god would be that specific. Instead he is joyfully vague. Apparently, he believes that anything more specific would ruin the "fun". Still, as with most things in the Mid-East, the people's desire to believe it is true makes it true for all extents and purposes. How annoying.

For once, Shedao15, I agree with you. The Holy Land is too holy for its own good. *shakes head* I'm soo glad I don't live there.

 

Genghis, i guess i'll have to take ur word for it that ur not biased. i still have my doubts, but o well.

EDIT: actually he did make it clear. in the koran, and i think in the torah as well, he said it belongs to all semitic ppls.

 

Neither Isreal or Palestine is innocent in this whole ordeal. What both nations have done to each other over the years is beyond pathetic. Its downright disgusting, and appauling.

 

Yeah, exactly, the descendents of Abraham. But still, even the angel dude told Abraham he would be the father of many nations, so it's pretty vague. Did he mean the legitimate descendent (Issac, born of Sarah) or the illegitimate descendent (Ishmael, born of Heger.) or was it supposed to be shared? Plus, the story is virtually unverifiable. Either it's the word of God or it's not but you can't prove either one beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Hoth, mate, where have you been all this time? These debates havent been the same without you

Shedao, my apologies. My memory told me that you had left to join the seminary and further your religious studies. My apologies if I have misrepresented your situation.

 

However, after the Empire collapsed it came under the control of the arabs. who controled under various governments until they were forced out by the Jews.

No, ?Arabs? in the sense people speak in now as having a claim to the land for ?millennia?, did not. Here is but one half of a page of a bit of history of Israel, taken from a book by Joan Peters that all folks with any serious interest in understanding the history of the area should read:

From the 10th century a multi-ethnic native population, which perhaps still included some few descendants of the Arabian invaders?all together under the rule of the Turks?commingled, and the possibility of singling out the Arabs as a people became unworkable; ?Arabic-speaking? people would be a more accurate term. Already in the 10th century the word ?Arab? reverts so its earlier meaning of Bedouin or nomad, becoming in effect a social rather than an ethnic term.

With the Crusader?s slaughters?including mass murder in 1099 of all the 70,000 Muslims in Jerusalem?the deterioration of the land in ?Palestine? accelerated. Massacres and the fear of massacre had greatly reduced the number of Jews in Palestine and Christians in Syria.

Because the population was decimated by the endemic massacres, disease, famine, and wars, one Muslim ruler brought in Turks and Negroes. Another had Berbers, Slavs, Greeks and Dailamites. The Kurdish conqueror, Saladin, introduced more Turks and some Kurds.

Thus, not only was Arab rule extraordinarily short, but the ?pure Arab Peoples in Palestine for millennia??a romanticized notion discredited by serious scholars?actually consisted of a non-Arabian, multi-ethnic procession of immigrants.

As far as was mentioned back a bit about reparations, Israel has compensated Palestinians. They set up a commission to deal with compensation and by 1975, 11,000 claimants were paid and given 10,000 acres as alternative holdings. Jews who fled Arab countries were never compensated. The Arabs who fled during the war and made it to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon were placed in refugee camps by their Arab brothers who did not contribute funds to their welfare. In fact, between 1950 and 1983 (last date I have for stats) Israel contributed over $11 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, far more than any Arab state.

As for the current part of the discussion that the problem be kept in the present context, I agree, so long as the past is not re-written by any Winstons to legitimize demands. The whole idea being presented as new of a ?two state? policy totally disregards the fact that a ?two state? policy was there from the start and blown off, as Genghis12 just pointed out. It is now a debate of a ?three state? policy. Which ideally could happen, but realistically (if people are to learn from history so as not to repeat it) is a scary proposition for Israel, and an undeserved one for the Palestinians, given their way of going about creating it. The bottom line is, neither side is going to get everything it wants, including that elusive ?3%? the PA is hung up on.

 

On the contrary, they CAN target the army.

They can go up to any border crossing and detonate a bomb. They can hide in the hills and use sniper fire. They can set roadside bombs.

Remember, if the army tried to stop a bomber, the bomber can always detonate the bomb, to take out the army people, which was the objective anyway.


Sure-- but the Israeli government has a policy of collective punishment. If a sniper were to shoot from a hill in a refugee camp, out come the Israeli tanks, out come the IDF, ready to defend Israel and her people by retaliating against the whole village.

Jenin is a case in point, but I believe this was also the situation that spawned that infamous picture of the 12 year-old-boy caught in the magical "crossfire" which removes responsibility from either party.

 

Dagsy: Don't worry about it no hard feelings. I had talked a lot about thinking of entering the seminary so its easy to see how one could be confused.

You know when it comes down to it, why must we fight? So what if I say the land belongs to one person and they say it belongs to another. Why must we kill eachother over it. Over ideologies, and land disputes and God knows how many other things. I believe that the palestinians have rightful claim to that land. However, I don't see the use in killing eachother over it. You know, the June before Jack Kennedey was assasinated he gave a speech at the American University and he said, "We gotta breath the same air, we gotta eat the same food, we gotta live together, we're gonna die together". so in the end why kill over these pointless issues. Why can't we see past lines of race and relgion and just sit in peace. Love one another as human beings. Sure we can disagree, Sure we can scream at eachother. But, we must ask ourseleves, are the issues for which people are dying over, really worth dying over?

 

Jolly...
"actually he did make it clear. in the koran, and i think in the torah as well, he said it belongs to all semitic ppls."

Yeah, but we have to note neither one is a document written by the Lord Almighty, Himself. They're His words as written through non-infallible (human) hands. The Koran, for example, was the word of God as given to Mohommad, and transcribed by him others.

So, neither the Torah or the Koran are literary works by God. They're not even ghostwritten by Jehovah. They're works penned by humans. That's not quite the same as a deed to land ownership granted by the Creator of the World and on file in the World Court, for example.

 

Interesting turn of events, we're getting state-sanctioned "mercenary warfare."

Egypt is exploring the idea of whoring itself out as a warrior - selling its services of waging war on Israel for $100B(US):

"Egyptian Prime Minister Atef Ebeid said his country would go to war with Israel if Arab countries stumped up $US100 billion ($A186.32 billion) to pay for the confrontation, in an interview published yesterday.

'If you want to undertake an action and be ready to face up to challenges, you need at least $100 billion,' he told the Abu Dhabi Government's Al-Ittihad newspaper when asked why Egypt had taken no measures against Israel's military offensive against the Palestinians.

'I told you we want $100 billion,' he repeated in response to a question why Cairo had not expelled Israel's ambassador to Egypt."

Is this actually true!?!

Talk about interesting. It might be time to start preparing now for WWIII in the Middle East.

 

Genghis,
Yeah, but we have to note neither one is a document written by the Lord Almighty, Himself. They're His words as written through non-infallible (human) hands. The Koran, for example, was the word of God as given to Mohommad, and transcribed by him others.

no, that's not true. all the words in the koran are god's word, period. muhammed (peace be upon him) was the vessel through which god would bring forth his message. before his revelation, muhammed (pbuh) did not have any knowledge whatsoever that he would later miracoulously possess. he was illiterate, and thus had limited knowledge of the world. but all of this changed after his revelation. thus, all the writing in the koran is not seen as muhammed's (pbuh) or any human's word. it is considered the word of god himself.

this differs with the torah, in which god's message is spoken of in the 3rd person, and is thus corrupted to some extent. but in both books, it is said that the land belongs to all semitic ppl, and both books are right.

i really hope that isn't true, about the egypt thing. the moslem countries have to stop trying to destroy israel. it is exactly the opposite of what the koran says, about religious and ethnic tolerance.

 

Ghengis: WWIII will start in China if That Schmuck W has his way. Hes been edging that country since day one, with his treatment of Taiwan. I read in the Orlando Sentinel today he said that the Chinese Army is preparing to launch an internet attack against us.

 

Jolly...
"all the words in the koran are god's word, period."

That's not my point - we agree on what the "words" are. My point isn't who's words they were, my point was who authored the documents. God didn't author the Koran. God didn't even ghostwrite the Koran under Mohommad's name. That's all well and good God told him what to write, but Mohommad didn't create the world, God did. So, the land is not Mohommad's land to deed away.

 

I hope that's not true! That could definitely bode ill for Israel.

here's another article about Jenin (but now I've learned how to link! Whoo hoo!)

Powell on Jenin

 

Dont worry about that Egypt situation. Thats basically a rebuttal to all the Arab countries that want Egypt to fight Israel. They all say Egypt is chickening out of the fight.

Egypt is simply responding by saying that it isnt worth their while to fight another war with Israel. As a country, they have been in a good situation since they made peace, and it would take a helluva lot (more than the Arabs countries would ever give to them) to make them change their minds.

Pay it no mind.

Unless these countries somehow manage to scrape together the money

 

So, the land is not Mohommad's land to deed away.

i'm not saying it's muhammed's land to deed away. i'm saying it's god's. and god said it belongs to both jews and moslems. i agree with god on this point.