Israel and Palestine: Abandoning God One Bullet at a Time

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MrEmh, Feb 4, 2002.

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  1. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Besides it's easy to plant false evidence of a massacre. The fact the Palestinians no longer complain about a massacre leads to believe they made a gambit and lost it.
    On the other hand, Israël did sound guilty when refusing to let the UN investigators in, but then again that may have been out of fear that false evidence had been planted.
  2. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I disagree about the Palestinians losing on their gamble.

    Just the fact that the word massacre was out there, with the huge media frenzy following means that they win. Even if a UN fact finding team came in and found Israel completely innocent (as now seems likely to be the case from an unbiased team), the word is still in peoples heads.

    Next time something happens, the word massacre will not have gone away. People will immediately question anything Israel does.

    The Palestinians have absolutely lied, and have won with it.
  3. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Embellished the truth, rather ;)
  4. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Dagsy,
    I do agree that an investigation should take place when bombings take place and when Israeli soldiers are murdered.

    I dont agree that people who have had pain inflicted on them from the other party should have a a had in the investigation.They should have there opinions listened to,but the UN should have their own team,that makes there own mind up based on what they find.
    you will never get an honest opinion from an Israeli or a Palestinian.

    TeeBee,

    i have a dictionary,i know what both words mean.


    What i find disturbing,is how in this thread 56 murdered people isn't seen as s huge deal.

    56 dead people is a 'large' number to me.Its not animals we are talking about is it,it's human life.

    I dont see reports of a massacre a lie.It may not be on the scale of what the Palestinians first thought or just said,but Sharon still has alot to answer for,like the dead and the mindless destruction of the area !!!
  5. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Like I said, the Palestinians embellished the truth ;)
  6. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
  7. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I dont agree that people who have had pain inflicted on them from the other party should have a a had in the investigation.

    Thats exactly my point, lav. The UN team had 2 out of the 3 chief investigators being people from humanitarian groups that had already decided it was a massacre. They were anything BUT impartial. They were anything BUT knowledgeable about terrorism and counterterrorism.

    These people had already decided that they wanted to side with the Palestinians on this. It was as good as having Palestinians on the UN team. These people wouldnt have cared about anything other than proving a non-existant massacre.

    As such, it would be better for Israel to stop the group from entering, and have a trial by media which has already decided there was no massacre. Some may think that there was a massacre, however its better to have that then a biased group 'proving' there was one.
  8. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, the numbers are low, but the pics on the media of Palestinians lying dead, shot à la SS, does concern me : that's a massacre, even if the figures are very small.
  9. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Dagsy,

    Humanitarian groups are not biased.Their name says it all.They are humanitarians.They are not a group who favour an particular race or goup.

    Like myself they care about each and every individual regardless of race.If they believe that murderer has taken place,they are going to want to investigate.

    They wouldn't be able to do an ivestigation if they had already come out and said Israel is guilty.The UN wouldn't let that happen,especially America !!!
  10. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    lav, the humanitarian group will only look at the Palestinian point of view. It will only look at anything Israel has done, regardless of whether it is justified.

    If a Palestinian gunman was in a house with a civilian, and the civilian died in crossfire, the humanitarians wouldnt care about the crossfire, just that the civilian died. They would find Israel guilty, even though it wasnt their fault.

    And humanitarians who have already decided there was a massacre are not unbiased.

    And the US approved a fact finding mission. The team was decided AFTER they already gave approval, not before. The US never had a chance to approve, and last I heard, they understood Israels point of view, they wanted the mision, but wanted to fix the problem.
  11. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Dasgy,

    thats what im saying,they will look at both sides.They wont just look at the Palestinian point of view.

    they are humanitarians.

    If they find evidence of Israeli troops being murdered somewhere in Jenin,they will most certainly see the Israeli point of view aswell....

    because,they are humanitarian !!!

  12. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Untrue, because the Israeli bodies have already been removed by Tsahal.
  13. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    So have Palestinian bodies by Israeli troops though.

    Which is removing more evidence that would or wouldn't incriminate Israel even more if an investigation did get under way.

    The longer and longer this ivestigation gets put off,the less there will be left to investigate !!!


    anyway,i have to do some work now,

    bye guys 8-} !!!
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Well, then everyone's admitted that any such investiation by nature cannot be objective based on facts, because all of the most important facts have already been compromised.

    If the presumed victims' evidence have been tampered with and the presumed aggressors' evidence has been tampered with, there is no other evidence which exists that has not been tampered with.

    The only thing they can go on is personal accounts - which would be highly problematic, whether they were interviewing the Israelis or the Palestinians. If they interviewed 30 different people, most likely they'd end up with 50 different accounts of what happened.

    And they can't use any evidence to try to support or dismiss any of them because the evidence has been compromised.

    So, what would be the point - any conclusion reached stands a strong chance of being outright wrong.

    The fact is, the time to do anything is when it is going on.
  15. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Israel off the hook !!!
  16. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    "The fact is, the time to do anything is when it is going on."

    -> Yep, and that was the time when Tsahal forbid anyone to try and see what was actually going on [face_plain]
  17. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Up.

    Mr. Sharon going to Washington to sell Mr. Bush a Peace Proposal where Mr. Arafat would be removed from office.
    Sharon will never learn [face_plain]
  18. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Well i blame Sharon for alot of the Anti-Semetic feeling going throughout the globe right now.

    I carn't think of anything nice to say about the guy.Hes a total A******.

    He has single handedly managed to turn more people against Israel since he's been in office than any 'arab' could do.

    For Israels sake,i hope they drop this A******,before he does more lasting damage to Israel.

    A Jewish MP said just last week that he needs to be removed before he gets more blood over the star of David !!!
  19. GeistDesFritz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 3
    humanitarians are, like the rest of us (ok, so I'm assuming here ;) ) are only human. they too are suseptible to bias for and against countries, people, etc. Just because they are humanitarian groups doesn't mean they are above this.
  20. Darth_AYBABTU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2001
    star 6

    Why does Lordban give a [face_plain] to the notion of Arafat being removed? He's the problem. He's been the problem since the beginning. He'll be the problem until the end.

    Since 1969, Arafat has been the head of the PLO, and now the PA. In that time, Israel has had leadership ranging from the far-right to the far-left: Rabin, Barak, Sharon, Netanyahu, Perez, just to name a few. Israel has given concessions. Israel has made peace proposals. The US has attempted to broker peace. Many different people have tried many different things.

    What is the one constant throughout all this? Arafat. He's been there through it all. He continues to send young Palestinians to their deaths in an attempt to destroy Israel. He is the one holding up the process. It's not Sharon. No matter who is in charge in Israel, Palestinian terrorist attacks continue.

    The ball is in Arafat's court. As long as he continues to condone the same tactics that he has over the previous 30+ years, then he's useless as a negotiator of peace. Get rid of him.

    AYBABTU?

  21. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Well i blame Sharon for alot of the Anti-Semetic feeling going throughout the globe right now... ..He has single handedly managed to turn more people against Israel since he's been in office than any 'arab' could do.


    ?Those confounded Jews. If only they would stop fighting back against terrorist attacks, we?d stop disliking them!"

    [face_plain]

  22. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Oh, and that's a very good point, Darth Aybabtu. People who blame Sharon for the present problems in Israel remind me of the historically amnesiatic folks who place the blame for the security problems of the US, that helped make 9/11 possible, squarely onto the shoulders of President Bush, simply because he was in power at the time it happened.

    However, I must correct you on one detail, though it is a big one. Arafat founded the PLO in 1964, not 1969. Three years BEFORE the beginning of the Israeli 'occupation' he so desperately wants to be 'Liberated' from. Wait, three years before?... ?[face_plain]

    Interesting. Either the guy is clairvoyant, or the conflict is NOT about the 'occupation' of the West Bank and Gaza. Hmmmm.
  23. Darth_AYBABTU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2001
    star 6

    Actually, the PLO was created under the auspices of the Arab League in 1964, but Arafat's Fatah faction didn't take power until 1969, when Arafat became chairman of the PLO executive committee. Prior to that, the Arab League favored more concilliatory treatment of Israel. Fatah didn't gain favor until after the Six Day War. Everyone please pay attention to that. Before Arafat took over, the PLO favored a more concilliatory policy toward Israel.

    Unlike many others in this thread, I fact-check before I post. ;)

    And I think you're right on in questioning his motives, TB.

    AYBABTU?

  24. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Totally disagree with both of you,but then again i'm not Jewish, im an individual with no bias.

    Aybabtu,you must have your head up you *** if you carn't see what damage Sharon is doing to his people and to there good reputation.I dread to think what state Israel will be in in the next 5 years or so just because of him and his personal feud with Arafat.

    As for Arafat.yes hes an A****** too,but he has almost achieved peace with Israel.Remember Rabbin.A leader of Israel who went the right way about pushing for lasting peace.

    remember him,that leader of Israel who unlike Sharon,was given respect by everyone around the globe,myself included.Sad what happened to him !!!
  25. Darth_AYBABTU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2001
    star 6

    **yawn**

    Head up my ass, indeed.

    AYBABTU?

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