Israel and Palestine: Abandoning God One Bullet at a Time

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MrEmh, Feb 4, 2002.

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  1. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    Dagsy, the UN investigation has stated that it looks like a 'masacre' is going too far but war crimes have certainly been commited.



    On a general note.,, If I came to your town and closed the roads you use to go to work, whilst leaving others free rights to use them, and generally - by gunpoint -= ensured that you and your familly lived life at a vastly reduced level when compared to myself - would you sit back and live with it or fight back?
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    toochilled...
    "On a general note.,, If I came to your town and closed the roads you use to go to work, whilst leaving others free rights to use them, and generally - by gunpoint -= ensured that you and your familly lived life at a vastly reduced level when compared to myself - would you sit back and live with it or fight back?"

    Well, if I was blowing people up, supporting others who blew people up and was inciting others to either help blow people up or support people who blew people up, then I would expect you to come into my town and close the roads I use in my support network of terror and generally - by gunpoint - ensure that I lived my terrorist life at a vastly reduced level when compared to others who choose not to blow people up or support the blowing up of people. :)
  3. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    But thats after the fact. They can't compete with the U.S. backing that Isreals army is getting. The palestinians can't win in a straight fight with Isreals army, their backs are up against the wall, how else are they supposed to fight? All the Palestinians can do is make Isreal bleed for every foot of land they gained.

    It would be interesting to see what Isreal would do if the money from the U.S. were to dry up. Isreal collects one third of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget in cash and free to spend it anyhow they want no questions asked. That comes to $3 billion dollars yearly, then add another $3 billion from various goverment programs. $6 billion bucks a year to help support the war effort since 1949 is pretty sweet, no wonder they are the 4th strongest army in the world. Wonder if they would make more compromises on the peace process if their military were scaled down to the palestians?Who knows maybe peace is $6 billion dollars away or if we try to tally their total amount of aid since 1949, $100 billion dollars away maybe more. :p

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  4. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    What Jenin 'massacre'? The death tolls according to the Palestinians are larger than that according to the Israelis.


    By 4. 56 vs. 52 dead.


    And with 26 IDF casualties, it sounds more like a 'battle' than a 'massacre' to me.



    Ridiculous. Remember what I posted about the British press going way overboard several pages back?
  5. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    RBE...
    "But thats after the fact."

    That statement goes for both sides. It all depends at which point in time you wish to go to to prove "before" and "after." And doing that, you won't ever get to a resolution.

    For example...
    "Wonder if they would make more compromises on the peace process if their military were scaled down to the palestians?Who knows maybe peace is $6 billion dollars away or if we try to tally their total amount of aid since 1949, $100 billion dollars away maybe more."

    They wouldn't have required any aid at all if the Palestinians hadn't tried wiping their country off the face of the world in 1948. :) It's the way it is, as a response to violent Palestinian/Arab actions. :)

    In fact, historical precedent coupled with continuing animosity is the main reason for the entire U.S. Military Aid Program to Israel. The purpose of the military aid package, as elaborated by the administration of Ronald Reagan and its successors, is to maintain Israel's "qualitative military superiority" over any combination of its Arab neighbors. At first glance, "any combination" seems to be a rather high bar of overkill, except when you take with it the fact that in 1948, five different Arab countries united with palestinians to destroy Israel. And since then, there have been various different combinations who have united to achieve the same goal. U.S. aid to Israel was an effect, stemming from a cause - not the other way around.

    At present the largest component of U.S. grant aid to Israel is the annual $1.8 billion military aid package. Since the U.S. military aid program to Israel began in 1959, the U.S. government has provided Israel $40.28 billion in military aid. Of this, $29.065 billion has been in grants and $11.213 billion has been in loans which U.S. taxpayers repay each year. Since 1985, however, all of the U.S. military aid component of U.S. foreign aid to Israel has been in the form of grants rather than loans, exactly as has been the case with the economic component of U.S. foreign aid to Israel. U.S. military aid to Israel reached the $1.8 billion annual level in 1987 and had continued at that level at least through FY97 (which ends on Sept. 30, 1997). I don't have any figures since then.
  6. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    toochilled, I know that every sane person has concluded no massacre...but some still say that there were war crimes.
    I think there should be a UN investigation...but an unbiased investigation, not one loaded against the Israelis.

    Of course, that doesnt explain why there are never even suggestions of UN investigations into the massacres of innocent Israelis by Palestinians.

    And on your general note...if you came and closed my roads etc, I would be mighty POed at you. I would fight you.

    I wouldnt go and kill your children, kill your wife. I wouldnt try to kill as many innocent people as possible.

    Tell me this, tc, why is it that people always try to explain why Palestinians are commiting these terrorists attacks, and come to the conclusion that its Israels occupation, but then dont give the same courtesy to Israel, and look at why they are occupying the territory?
    The were constantly attacked by the Palestinians. That is why they are there. With your general note...if I was attacking you and your family, would you want to cut off the roads I use to do it?

    RBE, if Israel didnt get that military funding, they would be destroyed. I am all for cutting Israels military...provided you cut the military of the Arab countries that want Israel destroyed. Otherwise you are loading the dice against Israel, with an enemy that wouldnt be as merciful toward Israelis as Israel are towards Palestinians...
  7. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    Dagsy, please do not mistake me.

    I look at the situation and see why the Palestinians are acting as they are, I also see why the Israelies are acting as they are.

    It is, sadly, in many ways like the Irish situation. To be quite frank, for the majority of people here, if you were born on the Palestinian side you would fight the Israelies; If you were born on the Israely side you would fight the Palestinians. And either way you would be, to an extent, justified - especially to yourselves.

    But why the hell is all the argument about who started it? It's pointless to talk as such. I hit you, you hit me, I hit you, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on.

    At some point people on both sides need to say; 'screw this, i've had enough of my loved ones dying in such a meaningless way'

    As part of that equality needs to be introduced too. Palestinians need to be granted the same human rights as Iraelies, and vice versa.
  8. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Heh, agreed about pretty much everything you said ;)

    It isnt that I was misunderstanding your point....I guess I just turned it into a general rant about how some people excuse Palestinian actions, but not Israeli actions.

    My apologies if it seemed like I was going off at you.

    Another rant arising from your comments:

    I dont agree with the direct comparison to the Ireland situation...a lot of people want to compare it, especially those in the UK. They like to say that 'you dont see Britain responding like this...they negotiate for peace'.
    Some aspects can be compared, however the big difference is that the IRA wants England out of Northern Ireland, and some level of self rule. The Palestinian terrorist groups want Israel destroyed completely. Leaving the Occupied Territories isnt enough for them. As such, the situation isnt directly comparable, and only some comparisons can be made...with appropriate disclaimers.

    But your comparison is valid ;)
  9. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    yup and the Israelies want Palestine gone....

    The English government did some truly disgusting things during the troubles -= easily equatable to Israel now. Of course - we don't always want to admit it... Internment, Bloody Sunday, and that's just the start...

    And the sad thing is that it is still FAR from resolved.

    oh well.
  10. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I dont know if the Israelis want Palestine gone...some right wingers would, but overall not that many.

    Notice I said the Palestinain terrorists want Israel destroyed? Not the Palestinians as a whole?

    My beef isnt with your average Palestinian...its with the terrorists and those in power that let them get away with murder.
  11. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    "I dont know if the Israelis want Palestine gone...some right wingers would, but overall not that many."

    -> That's the whole Likud... [face_plain] The party is after that eventual goal. they don't actually say it but when you take a look at what they propose, it's easy to understand. The Likud has an official stance against the existence of an independant Palestinian state ; it wants nothing more than a vassal state made up with random patches of land all over the West Bank and Gaza Strip...
  12. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    If they dont say it, then dont take it as a given. We dont know exactly how much Likud would be willing to give up. Hell, i dont think they know. The Likud members arent all of the same ilk.

    However, the PLO charters state the non-recognition of Israel. Yet these people are the ones that are in charge of the Palestinians, and are charged with stopping terrorists, and they dont want Israel at all.
  13. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Dagsy,that was a very good point that you have just made.

    The majority of Palestinians don't want an end to Israel,the terrorists do.Normal Palestinians get their name dragged through the mud because of there's disgusting terrorists.

    Terrorists shouldn't be stopped from letting peace wanting Palestinians from having peace or perhaps their own state.

    In 1946 Jewish terrorists were active.One group held people at gun point while others planted bombs in the basement of the King David hotel.90 people died (15 jews) and 45 were injured.
    These people were terrorists,but thankfully,the opinions of the peace wanting Jews of Palestine was heared,and later Israel was created.
    I hope something similar can be done for the innoccent peacefull Palestinians.Something must also be done to stop the terrorists,but i don't know if Sharon will do this !!!
  14. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Dagsy, the Likud is intent in creating a buffer zone as well as retain full control of all Palestinian borders, and be the only one to have military forces in Palestinian ground. Security forces would be allowed but no military ; the settlements would be implanted at a slower rythm but no action would be taken to bar new ones from being created, nor would settlement expansion be stopped.
    260 settlers in Hebron are guarded by 2,000 Israëli soldiers as it stands now. Near other colonies, the Israeli military presence is enormous too. And near the colonies, the PA has no right to enforce security, that's the privilege of Tsahal.
  15. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
  16. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
  17. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    "The militant Islamic Jihad group claimed responsibility for Wednesday's attack, and said the suicide bomber, who drove a car loaded with explosives up beside the bus, came from Jenin."

    Well, either it looks like the Israelis weren't thorough enough in their recent anti-terrorist actions in Jenin, or they were correct in their assertion that the city is quite simply nothing more than a terrorist breeding ground.
  18. MynDonos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2002
    star 3
    Middle East for Idiots - Dennis Miller's analysis

    "A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to
    all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the
    Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't
    thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

    The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about
    that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called
    Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds
    ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the
    land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians"
    then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no
    "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing
    oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the
    "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and
    "nation."

    So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more
    to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until
    someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what
    they are: "Other Arabs Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap
    Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I
    know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then:
    "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

    Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one
    more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time
    in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if
    you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage
    trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure
    out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the
    other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.

    They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the real
    fun is-but mostly they want Israel. Why?

    For one thing, trying to destroy Israel-or "The Zionist Entity" as their
    textbooks call it-for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab
    countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact
    that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally
    backward on G-d's Earth, and if you've ever been around G-d's Earth, you
    know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time
    one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the
    Muslim Mideast.

    Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
    world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
    one.

    Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five
    million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and
    Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these
    same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches,
    everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about
    the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of
    rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

    My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse
    the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I
    was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

    Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite
    to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at
    their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea?
    Nonsense.

    Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.

    Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
    bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

    No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews
    would ever do to people is debate them to death.

    Mr. Bush, G-d bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with
    vital operations coming up against Iraq and
  19. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Blantantly discriminating, coloured language and a discernable bias that makes this 'representation of history' as it calls itself, nothing more than what one would find in a opinions section of a newspaper, and therefore has about as much right to accurately comment on the action as any other opinion piece in the newspaper...i.e. none.

    (At least that was what my history lecturer would have written if I had ever used a source like that one!)

    To say that is true is ridiculous and nothing like what really happened at all. So what if Palestinian is a made up word...it doesn't excuse the rights that the people have to the land on which they lived and brought up their children.

    Australia wasn't a unified country with defined borders between tribes and all the land properly owned and dictated when the Europeans invaded, but it didn't make what they did right in any way shape or form.

    Taking land off someone else to give it to another group, without giving the first group compensation, asking their opinion on the matter, or allowing to give up their land voluntarily (which trust me didn't happen) is wrong. You wouldn't like it if I came to your town and told you that we were going to take the land off you because this was to become the new safe-haven for people from an entirely different country!!

    I don't have an issue with Jewish people in general, I just have an issue with people (of any religion) when they deam it okay to treat the people around them like dirt. Alternatively the Palestinians, or displaced people, need to grow up and start acting like adults (i.e. sitting down and actually talking this out with their neighbours, same really goes for the Israeli side too!).

    Violence doesn't prove or stop anything, on either side, the only thing it does is promote more violence and a long lasting feeling of hatred from both sides that cannot be explained or done away with. A hatred that eats at the culture and lives of those people who live there. The only way t stop it is for both sides to realise that they have gone about doing many things the wrong way in the past, but now they are committed to changing. This does not extend to the leaders, but also the people who live and breathe in that environment.

    That is the only way that change will ever be brought about.

    Okay, enough said.

    Kit
  20. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    That Dennis is one 'biased' individual.


    As for the events of this week,the circle of madness continues.



    round and round we go !!!
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