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Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Jedi_Jade-Skywalker

    Jedi_Jade-Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Unfortunately, there's definite media bias against Israel so you have to take everything you read with a grain of salt. You can read a whole bunch of POV's on the matter here.

    Personally, I never thought Trump would be a good president as far as policy on Israel. He really brings a whole new stink to corruption. Its also not a new thing for a candidate to flip flop on Israel after being elected. Its been a going thing to promise recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital...and it never come true.

    There's also nothing anyone can do to pressure Israel into an end to the conflict with the Palestinians. There will never be peace until the Palestinians recognize that Israel has a right to exist. And its not at all looking good that'll ever happen. Hamas just executed 3 Palestinians they accused of collaborating with Israel.

    And get a load of Hamas' charter. Sure doesn't sound like they want peace to me. Here's Fatah's charter too. Let's not forget that Mahmood Abbas is a member of Fatah.

    Meanwhile, Israel supplies water and electricity to Gaza on a humanitarian level. Then there's Syria, which would love to destroy Israel. Yet, Israel continues to provide medical treatment for Syrians. This has been going on for a while, yet you don't see it in Western media. Why? Because it doesn't fit the 'story' the liberal media is trying to sell.

    The only way to get an accurate picture of what's really going on in Israel is to actually read Israeli newspapers. Which are readily available for free.
     
    JarJarsTongue likes this.
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Hey, a new hasbarabot!
    Pleased to meet you.
    Might wanna try something else. Your propaganda falls on deaf ears here.
     
    CT-867-5309 and Lord Vivec like this.
  3. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    I merely presented a news article from noted anti-Semitic hate rag the LA Times about how the Israeli far right is disappointed to find that Donald Trump as president, contrary to their hopes, is more or less consistent with longstanding US policy toward Israel. That's all I've posted. Why you're running a PSA, I have no idea.
     
    CT-867-5309 and SuperWatto like this.
  4. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Biaf!
    Media, fo biafed.
     
  5. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
    I support Israel. Good people. Many Russian speaking former compatriots there, including Avigdor Liberman, the defense minister
    [​IMG]
    :D

    Tel Aviv city hall lit up in Russian colors in solidarity with St. Petersburg, after the recent terrorist attack there

    No European city did that...

    Of course, Israelis, like Russians, have faced much terrorism in recent years. Naturally, there is some empathy there...

    I have little sympathy for Palestinians, sorry. Even if they are "occupied" by Israel. Blowing up, shooting, stabbing, or driving over random civilians is not a war or even an insurgency. It's cowardice and terrorism.
     
  6. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    A state with established borders has kept growing in size over the past 7 decades and is still growing larger by the day. If you can explain to me how this is logically possible to achieve without bending the rules of physics, you can call it something other than "occupation".
     
  7. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
    I am not saying there is no occupation. I am saying stabbing random civilians is not a right way to resist an occupation.

    I will also point out that Israel is the only safe place in the Middle East for Christians, LGBTs, not to mention Jews themselves.
     
    JarJarsTongue likes this.
  8. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Lieberman is good people? Just because he comes from the same country as you?

    Some lovely quotes.
    "If it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example"
    "It would be better to drown these prisoners in the Dead Sea if possible, since that's the lowest point in the world"
    "'Whoever is with us should get everything. Whoever is against us, there’s nothing else to do. We have to lift up an axe and remove his head, otherwise we won’t survive here"
     
    Jedi Ben and yankee8255 like this.
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    He said stabbing innocent civilians is not the right way to resist an occupation. Apparently he believes it's the right way to stage one?
     
  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Idea: Lieberman can claim the Palestinians are oppressing the Russian speaking Israelis to justify Putin annexing Israel.
     
  11. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Last Wednesday, Israel sprayed herbicide on Palestinian crop fields. For the fourth time this year. Reason given: safety measure.
     
  12. JarJarsTongue

    JarJarsTongue Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2014
    SuperWatto is showing that Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel hatred is alive and well here on these boards. Attacking people calling them "HaSabra's", which I would take as a complement and continue to perpetuate hate of Jewish people. If you would like to speak about propaganda, one only needs to look in the mirror.
     
    SergeyX2017 and Scapro Tyler like this.
  13. Scapro Tyler

    Scapro Tyler Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    It isn't Anti-Semitic to criticize actions taken by a government if they are questionable.

    The name calling and describing anyone with a different opinion as a "bot" is the problem.
     
  14. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Tongue, conflating criticism of the Israeli government with hatred of all Jews is a tired old tactic that I didn't expect would still be used.
    Calling me an anti-semite is highly offensive. Much worse, in my opinion, than calling the 1000th person who posts a link to that old Hamas charter and disregards its current status a bot.
     
  15. Scapro Tyler

    Scapro Tyler Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    I realize this may seem tedious but when new people are joining a conversation perhaps it makes sense to show how someone is wrong with source material rather than outright calling them a bot?

    This thread started in 2009 and has 100+ pages to read. As new people join the boards or get involved in a conversation you may have people who rehash old ground and if you wish to actually have an open and fair dialogue it would make sense to show how the opinions someone has may be invalid or outdated.

    You could also just do what you currently do but then expect an equally annoyed and angry reaction in response.

    Really the question comes down to do you wish to have an open and fair debate/dialogue about issues or not. If you don't want to have that open and fair debate then why even bother commenting at all?
     
  16. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    The personal attacks need to stop. The debate can be open and fair, but it needs to center on the subject matter, not each other.
     
    Scapro Tyler likes this.
  17. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    It's just frustrating to see posts that ardently defend anything the Israel government does after Palestinians have been kicked in the mud for decades and their land has been torn to pieces.

    (is that alright, heels1785?)
     
  18. Scapro Tyler

    Scapro Tyler Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    I understand that and acknowledge the frustration.

    On the other side it is equally frustrating to see not a single other state in the region lift much of a proverbial finger to help the Palestinians and instead blame the whole situation on Israel because it is better to keep the oppressed Palestinians as the vassals for the struggle against the Jewish state.

    I have no horse in this game. I'm an Italian Catholic. The way I look at it, Israel now exists due to the virtue of having had a war and fought for the territory and won it and protected it from incursions. The other nations in the area need to get over it and move on to a peaceful solution. On the same token, Israel needs to stop being obstructionist about a two-state solution and needs to stop illegally taking additional land to make settlements on.
     
  19. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    It's also frustrating that the EU and the US and Russia all choose to back Israel over the Palestinians. Sure. But not equally. Like blaming Palestinian kids, this also distracts from Israel's responsibility. The Palestinians are not responsible for how surrounding countries act, so that can't be used as leverage against Israel's acts of oppression and occupation.

    Also, surrounding countries have taken in millions of Palestinian refugees. That is more than a proverbial finger; that's more than your country or mine would do.
     
  20. Scapro Tyler

    Scapro Tyler Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    UNRWA's data really isn't as kind as you make it seem to the neighboring countries.

    Jordan by far has done the most, taking in over 2 million refugees.

    Over 2 million refugees still are in Gaza or the West Bank.

    Syria took in a touch over 500K and Lebanon took in around 450K.

    The real problem is most of the countries that take in these refugees refuse to allow the refugees to become citizens or even the descendants become citizens. In Jordan they don't even resettle the refugees outside of camps. That finger was only lifted a micrometer if at all.
     
  21. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    So. More than our countries would do.
    But again, neighbouring countries are not the issue.
     
  22. Scapro Tyler

    Scapro Tyler Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Respectfully disagree.

    It is a two pronged problem. The greater world community must pressure Israel for a two-state solution and the neighboring countries must also be desiring a two state solution and not a "we just want Israel gone" solution.
     
    SergeyX2017 likes this.
  23. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Yes they do, but my point was: Palestinians can't be blamed for the attitude of neighbouring countries. So it's not "on the other side equally frustrating" - it's more "what adds to the frustration".
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Talk of negotiations is all very well but it assumes a level of equality between the two parties that just isn't so:
    • Israel is a regional, economic and military superpower
    • The Palestinians are nowhere near being a state by any measure
    Right-wing Israeli politicians demand from the Palestinians 100% security, 100% of the time - this is something no peace process can promise, because there will always be those isolated acts that seek to derail it. Due to the massive power disparity between the two Israel will have to give more for the overall, long term gain of enabling the Palestinians lives to improve which would attack Hamas' appeal.

    This is before you get anywhere near the 800-tonne problem of the settlements, which have been a roadblock for the last 40 years since Likud got elected in 1977.

    The worst element of the entire thing is that the most extreme politicians on either side, while professing to wish to destroy the other, actually support and enable each other! The greater, more moderate mass that could likely make a peace process work are cut out of the process in favour of a set of extremists who practically do wish for mutual destruction.
     
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  25. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
    Actually, as far as Russia goes, it's more complicated than that. Putin really does play BOTH sides there.

    On the one side, Russia, of course, fully recognizes Israel. Putin has a very good relationship with Netanyahu, and the two countries keep in touch with each other to ensure they don't step on one another's toes in Syria, for example: Why Russia and Israel are Cooperating in Syria

    Putin has his own reasons to, at least, pay good lip service to Israel. For one thing, among the Russian oligarchs, the billionaires who are the financial backbone of the Kremlin, there are plenty of Jews, many with Israeli passports. Israel has some influence in Russia, that way.

    And, he has voters there too. Many Russian citizens in Israel, and they vote.

    Here, one family, at a polling place for Russian Duma (parliament) elections last year
    [​IMG]
    One of 13 polling stations opened in Israel for that election. No joke.

    Russian government has to reach out to these folks, at least a little bit ;)

    On the other hand, Russia also refuses to consider Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist groups: Russia Says Hezbollah, Hamas Aren't Terrorist Groups

    One can understand that too: calling Hezbollah terrorists would be awkward, while Putin's own men are fighting alongside them in Syria, and some Russian Special Operations Forces troops even wearing their bloody patches!
    [​IMG]

    And Hamas... Well, that's probably just being nice to Iran. Another... "ally"... Misguided of Putin, to align Russia so closely with the Persians... But, I suppose he knows something I do not...

    Anyhow, yeah, Russia does play a heck of a double game there. One day, though, probably sooner rather than later, they will have to actually pick a side. Will be interesting to see what happens...