Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Can we just nuke Israel? I mean, it's not like we'll be losing much. What's the difference between one fanatically religious government or the other when it comes to the Middle East? I'm not serious, of course. Realistically the average Israeli is fairly moderate and open to peace discussions. It's the fanatics who just need a conflict to stay in power who are the problem, however, how the hell do they keep getting voted in? If the fundamentalist Jews are really a minority of the populace then what's happening? Are they stealing elections? Have others in the west been lied to about the supposed 'moderation' of the public? What is it, because I'm really curious.
  2. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    You do realize, people, that the Israel-Arab conflict is

    A)one of the less bloody of the 20th and 21th century ?
    B)is one of the handful of conflicts since 1900 in which the majority of the deaths were soldiers in uniform ?
  3. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Uh, tell me about the Palestinians who were killed who were soldiers in uniform?
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  4. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Vivec, don't you know? All Palestinians are born with the uniform of terrorists: swarthy skin.

    [face_flag]
    LostOnHoth and Lord Vivec like this.
  5. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    No

    I said Israeli-Arab conflict. The bulk of the casualties were Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians in uniform.

    The number of Palestinians killed by Israel since 1948 is around 15 000, maybe 20 000. By any standard, the conflict is rather low intensity.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 16, 2012
  6. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
  7. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Considering that all ''truces'' brokered by the Hamas are specifically ''islamist truce'' (which means ''we are at peace until we have enough weapons to destroy you'', well....
    Its not Israel. It's the Hamas that insist that when they sign a truce, it's for this.

    And besides, the article is about what ? Oh, that he had received the draft of a truce proposal. Oh my.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 16, 2012
  8. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I don't think people object to the intensity of the conflict. That has almost never been the point. Rather, criticism is focused on the (lack of) safeguards against civilian casualties, human rights abuses alleged against the two sides, and breaches of consensus rules of war. For instance, if a massacre of unarmed civilians should kill 90 people, no one would argue that this is a more desirable outcome than an actual military engagement between two professional armies in which one hundred soldiers ultimately lose their lives. I don't see how a body count is a very relevant part of this discussion.
  9. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    I agree. It makes more sense to do an olive tree count. More than half a million...
    Last edited by SuperWatto, Nov 16, 2012
  10. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    No, I'm just saying that the focus on this conflict is kinda amazing.

    No, this is not the worst war ever. Compared to most wars since 1800, it's one of the wars with the fewest overall casualties.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 16, 2012
  11. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    But it's hardly the case that "lefties" are alone in their focus on the conflict. Did you not notice that huge focus on Israel from the Republicans? How, prior to the Benghazi incident, this constituted the entirety of Republican consideration of foreign policy?

    Also, I don't know anything about the truce story, as I haven't read it in Haaretz, but your response is ridiculous on its face. People don't send drafts of major diplomatic documents to senior political leadership unsolicited. A draft implies prior discussions to establish the positions in said draft, and thereby at least indicates a notional openness to the idea of such an agreement. Even worse, your response to the news that a permanent draft was being considered is simply to assert, in the face of reality, that this is wrong, because--apparently as a law of the universe?--Hamas can't do such a thing. We know they haven't before. That's why it was news that they were doing something different this time. I don't know if the story is true or not, but at least try to do something more than offer up this sort of ridiculous spin in response to it.
  12. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Uh, yes, anyone can write of a ''peace plan'' and send it (unsollcited) to a leader. That will throw it in the garbage bin.

    I can write my SW 7 plot about Jar Jar and his raging death stick addiction forcing him in the streets of Coruscant, and mail it to Disney.

    I will technically ''have sent to Disney a SW plot''
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 16, 2012
  13. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    And most leaders never see them. It wouldn't register and certainly wouldn't make news. It would go into the trash pile with an assortment of other junk mail, odd conspiracy theories, and rabid fan mail that low-level workers have to sort through in the mail room. Further, specific to the actual story in question, what you are describing is not the state of proposal in question.

    Do you really find Israel's actions so indefensible that your only response to this allegation is simply to assume that it never could have represented anything at all, and was only the online dissertation of a bearded Oregon hippie who fancies himself socialist?
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Nov 16, 2012
  14. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    It's because, very specifically, the article is about someone who claim to have sent to the Hamas such a document.

    The formulation also indicates two things

    1)The Israeli government was aware of it, but not spearheading it
    2)It was a proposal sent by the activist.

    It's not exactly a random document. It's hardly a peace treaty eithr.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 16, 2012
  15. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Rogue wrote the peace plan?
    Rogue_Ten likes this.
  16. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2008
    star 5
    Perhaps you should change the title of this thread? I keep reading it as "Intestine".
  17. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    touche, sir
    Ender_Sai likes this.
  18. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    I keep wondering, why now?
    It's like Netanyahu thought "I am going to go to war before Hanukkah, no matter what! If I can't have Iran, I'll just get Gaza again!"
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    The timing is suspect, but mostly because of what it follows... The US election, for example?
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  20. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Ok, I wish some help. All my life, very vaguely through news and the general attitude of the U.S. government, it has appeared that Israel is the good guy and the other side of Gaza is the bad guys.

    I think I need a Gaza Strip For Dummies with facts presented.
  21. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Good guys and bad guys is, outside of film, a vapid oversimplificiation. Both sides here are guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and gross idiocy. The point is to find a way to make both behave like humans. Any person that expects Israel to concede more, or the Palestinians to concede more, is not worth listening to.

    There. Done.
    solojones, yankee8255 and LostOnHoth like this.
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Didn't he do the same thing a month after Obama was elected, almost exactly 4 years ago?
  23. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    hmmm the answer is somewhere in the middle i see... thanks trey parker and matt stone of the hit comedy central animated comedy series South Park

    hey everybody lets understand the big important threat to its VERY SURVIVAL israel faces every day with this awesome graph with big red numbers and everything

    [IMG]

    gee they sure have it tough


    [IMG]

    over there in ol' israel

    [IMG]

    wouldnt wanna be in their shoes. especially with that liberal media

    [IMG]

    always doggin 'em

    [IMG]

    when all israel's doing is DEFENDING itself from freakin' TERRORISTS

    [IMG]

    GEEZ
  24. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Thank you, Rogue. What you have done is highlight a bias in US media towards Israel. The next thing you will do is shock everyone by suggesting Israel is the largest recipient of US aid in the world or some equally shocking and utterly known fact.

    Just so I know you've done some fair and impartial research; can you highlight what percentage of Palestinians support the Palestinian Authority vs support HAMAS; and where HAMAS sources most of it's funding and logistics from.

    Moreover, can you please advice how many of the incidents resulting in Palestinian fatalities were the result of Israel instigating conflict?

    Finally, can you please outline how Israel is expected to deal with an entity which includes Israel's destruction in it's charter?

    Note: In the interests of full disclosure, I hold the belief that Israel, as a sovereign state, needs to be held more accountable to the world for it's actions including the provocative settlement program. So, I'm not pro-Israel.
    Condition2SQ and Rogue_Ten like this.
  25. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5