Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    You were actually trying, Ender? I suppose accusing me of "using the Palestinian people" for my"own ends" comes off as reasonable to you.
  2. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    They do. They just accept that setback in return for the inconvenience it causes Israel to formally annex said land, which assures that their plight of independence lives on. If their pride is such that they will rather as a people collectively endure self-imposed poverty than becoming a part of Israel, all the more power to them. I'm not judging the intelligence of it; it might be stupid, it might be smart, but whatever it is, I at the very least find their tenacity admirable. And, as previously mentioned, it apparently is working.

    What bothers you is not their poverty. You don't give a **** about their poverty. What bothers you is that they're so committed that they would hurt themselves just to not let the ones that you're siding with win. And that in turn bothers you because a) you don't understand it and b) you just don't like them.
    Last edited by Violent Violet Menace, Nov 20, 2012
  3. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    For killing Jews, Islamist radicals are indeed ''tenacious''. And incompetent.

    It's really funny to see djihadists lickers scream murder when Israel strikes, but have convulsions of joy when one of their rockets kill an Israeli.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 20, 2012
  4. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    good thing the israelis are so much more skilled at killing... women and children?
  5. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    You have used three terms thus far. In your first post, you referred to "People of Gaza", in your second to "Palestinians" and now "Jew killing Islamist radicals". Way to move the goal post. My post was not a response to "Jew killing Islamist radicals". Nice try. But if anything, this latest post of yours only illustrates even clearer my second paragraph.
    Last edited by Violent Violet Menace, Nov 20, 2012
  6. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    And this, in a nutshell, is why the peace process has never worked. All other cultural, religious, and historical claims and hotpoints aside, at the end of the day there's a lot of human nature that's inclined towards being entrenched, unreasonable, and bombastic when your group is pitted against another. What we essentially have is the same underlying problems and attitudes that lead to gang warware in urban America. It's not really about beliefs. It's about being being oppressed (as the Jews were and as the Palestinians are) and turning to a group of fellows whom you can agree with and feel a part of. It's about winning and being better and being right. Both sides are awful, violent, unreasonable, and ultimately moronic where progressing towards peace is concerned.

    In my experience, there are a whole lot of people in both Israel and Palestine (the West Bank anyway; obvious I didn't go into Gaza) who either don't really care about the conflict or just want it to go away so they can live their lives. Unfortunately, the loud and adamant voices of extremism dominate the discourse, such as it is. A lot of you are displaying this problem in a microcosm here. Brilliant.
    Last edited by solojones, Nov 20, 2012
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  7. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    I will always wonder why no one else ever considered this wonderful trick for defence : hide behind children, because then you can't be fired on : it's illegal !

    Besides, do you seriously think that the Palestinians even care remotely about what they are trying to hit with their rockets ? Those things can miss a 52 square kilometers city.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 20, 2012
  8. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    BTW, the extreme efficiency of the Iron Dome must be a very serious warning for Iran and their proxies.

    Their only real strategic strenght is their threat of launching rockets against everything that move if you displease them. We can see one more time here that those rockets have absolutely abject accuracy. Not only that, but they are fairly successfully intercepted.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 20, 2012
  9. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    And once again, Rogue, Hamas has not avoided killing women and children for lack of trying. They just aren't very good at it because their rockets and aim are poor.
  10. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    where would you suggest hamas "hides"? they cant leave the concentration camp

    also the "strategy" you mention is only effective when your attackers have compunctions about killing women and children. apparently israelis are more worried about their pets being disturbed
  11. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Ah, yeah, the ''concentration camp'' agitprop tactic.

    Serves two purpose

    1)Telling that the evil Jeeeews complained for nothing in WW2 (when you are not implying the Holocaust is an hoax)
    2)Telling that the good and nice Palestinians are victims.

    IYO, guys, what would have happened exactly if the inmates of Dachau (a mere concentration camp) had lobbed grenades at a German town ? How quickly do you think the whole camp would have been machine gunned ?

    Besides, it's pretty obvious that Israel don't fire at random targets....if Israel just wanted to ''kill innocent childrens'', they would just bomb the schools.
    Last edited by BaronNoir, Nov 20, 2012
  12. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    I do agree, concentration camp is not the right analogue. That's not going to help anyone understand what's going on there, it's only meant to inflame. The more accurate comparison would be that Gaza is fairly like a ghetto.
  13. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Yeah, the medieval reports are choke full of reports about the denizens of the Venice ghetto firing trebuchet shots at Venice
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Cute choice of words. Nice little hint of emotion there Rogue.

    Also, they tend to attack from sites largely near but outside the camps. :)
  15. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Although the term "concentration camp" tends to bring up images of the Holocaust today (and is incorrectly used for other things such death camps), it did not originate with Nazi atrocities. I'd say Gaza fits the definition pretty well.
  16. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    when you put a bunch of people of a particular ethnic/religious identifier in a place that they're not allowed to leave (ghettoes at least had non-curfew hours), that's generally called a concentration camp. the only reason gaza IS NOT typically termed as such is sensitivity to the jewish experience in europe
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Nov 20, 2012
  17. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Except for the part about ''inmates'' repeatedly lobbing rockets at their ''guardians''.

    BTW, if the evil Jeews keep the gentle Palestinians penned in Gaza....

    A)Why their Egyptian ''brothers'' don't help them ?
    B)Why the human development in Gaza is higher than in most countries of the Arab world ?
  18. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    so having the audacity to fight back against occupation negates the fact of the occupation?

    at any rate, dude, it seems like you have a problem with jews and im gonna have to ask you to cut out the antisemitism
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Nov 20, 2012
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  19. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    My original point about Gaza being overcrowded is merely that Gaza, in 1948, was hardly overcrowded. There was not really big waves of Palestinians being ''added'' to the population of Gaza because of Israel since 1948.

    How, considering that the population of Gaza was multiplicated by four since 1948 by natural growth, the said overcrowding is Israel fault ?
  20. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    Has anyone said that it's Israel's fault? Why are you debating imaginary opponents?

    Also, why do you bring up that Egypt doesn't help them? In case you're unaware, Egypt was ruled by a US lapdog who, as I guess you would put it, licked America for the last 30 years, up until last year. Their rulers hardly reflected the will of the Egyptian people. And their current rulers would hardly dare to position themselves against Israel and/or the US. But let's put that aside. Even if I concede your point that Arabs are backstabbing people who don't give a rat's ass about the problems and plights of their fellow Arab neighbours, what do you hope to achieve with this argument? Because other Arabs don't care about Palestinians, and because Arabs are a pathologically backstabbing ruthless people who don't care about each other, they deserve to be isolated in Gaza? They deserve to be denied self-determination? Is that what you're trying to say? It sounds like it. But save us the guesswork and instead of implications and half finished arguments, say what's really on your mind.
    Last edited by Violent Violet Menace, Nov 20, 2012
  21. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6
    wait so you're backpaddling all teh way back to posts that i dont recall reading and am too lazy to look back up. does this mean you're conceding the more recent ones?
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    The argument I'd raise here is that they're not really fighting back against occupation. The agents provocateur from IJ, HAMAS, etc strike from within occupied territory and invite response upon the occupied, there is no doubt of that. In my view, the Pasdaran is firmly satisfied with this outcome because each dead Palestinian helps them achieve their long-term goal.

    But the problem is that this really has no bearing on the occupation. Israel's not a country that suffers war-weariness so you can't manipulate the people into giving up support for the war. The Knesset is blithely indifferent to international opinion, so they can't be swayed too much by outsiders. And to be fair, I think they understand the situation is a mess and that innocents are dying, but they aren't going to compromise so long as they feel insecure.

    Similarly, the radicals aren't going to compromise so long as Gaza is under occupation and there's no public outcry from the Palestinians.

    We end up back at my point earlier about the resolution.
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  23. BaronNoir Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 1
    Oh yes, Mubarak was really a shame, compared to luminaries such as Khadaffi, B├ęchir and Al-Assad.
  24. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    Answer my question, Baron. What are you trying to say?

    Do you have a point to make at all, or are you just venting frustration?
    Last edited by Violent Violet Menace, Nov 20, 2012
  25. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Well, I'm aware of that. But the association is still the issue. A big part of that is that people tend to incorrectly believe concentration camp is synonymous with death camp. We tend to say the former but think of the latter, when they aren't the same. But you can't erase that perception, so the word is wrong to use imho.

    But also because even in concentration camps proper in various places, you don't really have people still owning businesses, going to school, living in homes. This is why I feel ghetto is more appropriate.