Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    ill inform the victims of japanese-american "internment" that they weren't really in concentration camps. im sure they'll be relieved to hear it
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Nov 20, 2012
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Guy's link confirms usage has been shaped by, and shifted as a result of, Nazi death camps. But, you already knew this didn't you?
  3. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    The main point is that, regardless of the varied history of such camps, the language is meant to conjure up images of the Holocaust. Dithering about definitions isn't really the point. The point us that both sides using inflammatory language and having no desire to actually look for a solution is the same base tactics one would see in gang warfare. It's not actually about talking about a solution. It's just talking to talk.
  4. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    im glad you have a clear picture of what you're doing. lets take it one step further: when you "talk to talk", the status quo results
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Don't be like Vivec, Mike.

    The Wikipedia article - which I'm happy for anyone to shoot down as "lol, Wikipedia" if they feel it doesn't match their viewpoint - states that the terminology has shifted since WWII to mean death camps. You purposefully used that language to invoke that imagery, given the ironic shift from victim to oppressor that Jews have undertaken. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous and transparent.
  6. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    im open to other terms you'd like to use to describe the situation. solojones offered "ghetto", but, again, jews were allowed to leave the ghettoes, just not at night. "internment" implies a short term situation, not an indefinite status quo.

    perhaps you'd prefer "apartheid"?
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Nov 20, 2012
  7. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    You forgot "pogrom" in your list of words designed to capture your emotional response to the Palestinian question.

    And you forget that apartness was designed to keep segregation based on the largely-Afrikaaner belief that blacks were inferior and that God made them that way; therefore they needed to be put in their place. So to label what's happening with Gaza as Apartheid is also inaccurate, chommie, because you mistake rabid insecurity for malicious racism.
  8. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    no im pretty sure i havent made any such mistake
  9. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    In relation to the best way to describe the conditions in Gaza, I think one of the best sources of information is from B'Tselem because B'Tselem is an Israeli NGO which covers human rights breaches in the occupied territories by both sides of the conflict. Its reporting is pretty well balanced.

    http://www.btselem.org/search/google_cse_adv/gaza

    I would particularly recommend the following reports:

    http://www.btselem.org/download/200705_gaza_insert_eng.pdf

    http://www.btselem.org/topic/gaza_strip

    Based upon the information provided by B'Tselem I think "open air prison" which is under "seige" is an apt description.

    http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/siege

    I don't anything has changed since we first discussed this in this thread when we pretty much came up with a Senate Peace Plan (not sure if all of our previous posts survived the move but I will try and find it). Needless to say it involved withdrawal of Israeli forces and illegal settlements from the occupied territories (with a small amount of land exchange for some existing settlements) to pre-1967 borders, lifting of the blockade against Gaza, abandonment of the Palestinian 'right of return', removal of Hamas and joint efforts (with US and UN assistance) to crack down on the militants (who would become the 'insurgents' a la Iraq.
    Last edited by LostOnHoth, Nov 20, 2012
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    But "open air prison" doesn't show my university pals how in touch I am with modern causes like calling it an "apartheid neo-kristallnacht pogrom Final Solution"! :(
    DarthBoba likes this.
  11. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Apartheid is what happens within Israel. :p
  12. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    open-air prison under seige works.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
  14. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Cease-fire went into effect about 2 hours ago, which Hillary Clinton and the Morsi government seem to have negotiated in Cairo.

    [IMG]
    [IMG]







    I like this:
    [IMG]
  15. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Glad a cease fire is in place. Doubt it'll last more than a few months though.

    Personally I think the only real solution to this crisis for a permanent peace is if we can build our own Gort robots and implement a Day the Earth Stood Still program.

    Either that or using balloons ala Up we lift Israel and place it in the middle of the Atlantic and leave the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians.
  16. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    What the President said is that because there is an entirely new regime, there's no established relationship yet. What you did was declare the end of the relationship between the US and one of its longest-standing and most important allies just because it a politician with a 90% Muslim constituency went on TV and objected to something inflammatory about Islam.
  17. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Well it's a good start. In terms of this particular accord providing the basis for a more long term arrangment, its success will, as always, largely depend on two things: the ability of Hamas to control the other militant groups which operate in Gaza (and who don't consider themselves to be bound by any truce brokered by Hamas ) so that there are no more rocket attacks, and for Israel to ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza by opening the borders and relinquishing its current level of control over access to trade goods, water, medical supplies, electricity, food etc which is effectively a form of collective punishment.

    I know there is a fair amount of influence from Iran in Gaza and E_S will probably disagree with me but I still believe that the rocket attacks are a 'resistance' or 'self defence' response to the appalling conditions in Gaza and the regular incursions by IDF into Gaza - the tactical situation in Gaza is such that firing off rockets is about the only form of active resistance available to them. Accordingly, I believe that the 'resistance' response can be addressed by Israel relinquishing control over the borders of Gaza and by easing restrictions on access to the fundamentals. If Israel actually disengages and ends the blockade and there is still rocket fire into Israel from Palestinian militants, then I will cheer on any Israeli military response (so long as it is proportionate) and will declare everlasting loyalty and fealty to Netanyahu and will tattoo a portrait of Sharon on my chest.
    Last edited by LostOnHoth, Nov 21, 2012
  18. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I don't disagree per se Lost; I think that Iran is quite happy to exploit the Palestinian situation and goad Hamas et al into continuing their fight. Iran doesn't care fo the Palestinian cause; they don't care how many die so long as Israel is weakened.
  19. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
  20. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    I very much agree, but I have to note that firing rockets at civilian areas is a war crime. Even if you'd be doing it from within, say, a concentration camp... still a war crime, and rightly so. It's one of the very few things all countries in the world agree on.

    That'd be nice charity: donating money to legal folk who can brush Hamas up on the Geneva Conventions.
    Vivec, you wanna send Hoth some money?
  21. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    Of course, I agree that firing rockets at civilians is a war crime (however defined) and should be condemned. My comment should not be interpreted as supporting such action, just putting the action in some context (in particular, the context of how the rocket attacks need to be addressed - simply condemning them without looking at the root causes won't lead to a stable resolution).

    As to educating Hamas on the niceties of international humanitarian law, somehow I don't think I would have a very big class.
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  22. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
  23. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    You should read the Amnesty International report "Killing the Future: Children in the Line of Fire"(2002):

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE02/005/2002

    The report "Killing the Future: Children in the Line of Fire" provides a number of examples, including this one:

    Human Rights Watch and B'Tselem have also published reports on IDF deliberately targeting civilians and children. Both organisations also condemn Hamas for doing the same thing.
    Last edited by LostOnHoth, Nov 21, 2012
  24. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    It is ethnocentric; that's my entire point. In this context, ethnocentric is a values-neutral word to me. It doesn't convey either superiority or inferiority, it's merely an observation that the political discourse in a society is highly influenced by its own contingent geopolitics and history. I think far too many people labor under the misconception that Western values have some sort of ontological status as being "true" and anything not in accord with them is a pathology that must be attributable to epiphenomena. But what rational basis does such an idea have? Who are we to shoehorn our political and philosophical framework of reality onto other cultures whose politics and discourse have taken a different direction? And did "economic opportunity" and the "fruits of civilization" prevent the development of the sundry phantasmagorical 20th century totalitarian movements like Nazism, Fascism, Stalinism, and the Romanian Iron Guard?

    Wocky, comfort yourself with semantics all you want. The import of his words was considerably more forceful than you suggest, which is obviously why the State Department felt the need to release a hilarious "clarification" of his comments the next day that would have been perfectly at home, verbatim, on The Onion.
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Nov 21, 2012
  25. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Insert Wikipedia Link to Great Depression here.